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[Link Posting] The cashless society is a con ? and big finance is behind it
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Rich
2018-07-21 14:53:38 UTC
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# ATTENTION: This post is a reference to a website. The poster of #
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<URL:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/19/cashless-soci
ety-con-big-finance-banks-closing-atms>
All over the western world banks are shutting down cash machines and
branches. They are trying to push you into using their digital payments
and digital banking infrastructure. Just like Google wants everyone to
access and navigate the broader internet via its privately controlled
search portal, so financial institutions want everyone to access and
navigate the broader economy through their systems.
Another aim is to cut costs in order to boost profits. Branches require
staff. Replacing them with standardised self-service apps allows the
senior managers of financial institutions to directly control and
monitor interactions with customers.
Banks, of course, tell us a different story about why they do this. I
recently got a letter from my bank telling me that they are shutting
down local branches because "customers are turning to digital", and they
are thus "responding to changing customer preferences". I am one of the
customers they are referring to, but I never asked them to shut down the
branches.
There is a feedback loop going on here. In closing down their branches,
or withdrawing their cash machines, they make it harder for me to use
those services. I am much more likely to "choose" a digital option if
the banks deliberately make it harder for me to choose a non-digital
option.
In behavioural economics this is referred to as "nudging". If a powerful
institution wants to make people choose a certain thing, the best
strategy is to make it difficult to choose the alternative.
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers. They thus initially present self-checkout as a
convenient alternative. When some people then use that alternative, the
supermarket can cite that as evidence of a change in customer behaviour,
which they then use to justify a reduction in checkout employees. This
in turn makes it more inconvenient to use the checkout staff, which in
turn makes customers more likely to use the machines. They slowly wean
you off staff, and "nudge" you towards self-service.
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit. Payments companies such as Visa and Mastercard want to increase
the volume of digital payments services they sell, while banks want to
cut costs. The nudge requires two parts. First, they must increase the
inconvenience of cash, ATMs and branches. Second, they must vigorously
promote the alternative. They seek to make people "learn" that they want
digital, and then "choose" it.
...
Huge
2018-07-21 17:17:18 UTC
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Post by Rich
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<URL:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/19/cashless-soci
ety-con-big-finance-banks-closing-atms>
Bear in mind the Guardian is pretty Left Wing (even by Brit standards. By
American standards it's rabidly Communist)
Post by Rich
All over the western world banks are shutting down cash machines and
branches. They are trying to push you into using their digital payments
and digital banking infrastructure. Just like Google wants everyone to
access and navigate the broader internet via its privately controlled
search portal, so financial institutions want everyone to access and
navigate the broader economy through their systems.
Except that the EU has mandated that those systems have to be open, that
systems from different institutions must interoperate and that customers
must be able to move their accounts seamlessly between banks.
Post by Rich
Another aim is to cut costs in order to boost profits. Branches require
staff. Replacing them with standardised self-service apps allows the
senior managers of financial institutions to directly control and
monitor interactions with customers.
They're already doing that. Your local branch manager hasn't any independence
from Head Office for decades.
Post by Rich
Banks, of course, tell us a different story about why they do this. I
recently got a letter from my bank telling me that they are shutting
down local branches because "customers are turning to digital", and they
are thus "responding to changing customer preferences". I am one of the
customers they are referring to, but I never asked them to shut down the
branches.
That's fine, but you cannot keep open a bank branch on the custom of one
customer. One of the High St banks in my local town just closed because
the average monthly footfall is less than 100.

[22 lines snipped]
Post by Rich
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit.
Awww, diddums. Those nasty evil banks, eh? That paid £35.4 *billion*
in taxes to the UK exchequer in 2016/17. Retail branch banking loses
money. Lots of money. You cannot operate a business for any length of
time when it loses lots of money. Oh, and before anyone pipes up about
how it could be cross-subsidised from the nice profitable corporate
banking business, the UK Government just made the banks "ring-fence"
their retail operations. You can't have it both ways. The High Street
is dying. And so are High Street bank branches.

In short, to the original author of that innumerate, poorly thought out,
bigoted rant, shut the fuck up.
--
Today is Boomtime, the 56th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
RJH
2018-07-22 12:41:11 UTC
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snip
Post by Huge
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit.
Awww, diddums. Those nasty evil banks, eh? That paid £35.4 *billion*
in taxes to the UK exchequer in 2016/17.
Billions? Really? Off what sort of income, do you think? And how much of
that income was obtained fraudulently, do you think? Billions, eh. Ah,
diddums :-)


Retail branch banking loses
Post by Huge
money. Lots of money. You cannot operate a business for any length of
time when it loses lots of money. Oh, and before anyone pipes up about
how it could be cross-subsidised from the nice profitable corporate
banking business, the UK Government just made the banks "ring-fence"
their retail operations. You can't have it both ways. The High Street
is dying. And so are High Street bank branches.
In short, to the original author of that innumerate,
Priceless!

poorly thought out,
Post by Huge
bigoted rant, shut the fuck up.
You are so utterly inept at presenting an argument. Firstly, in the way
you present a counter. It really is basic and you might want to read a
little. Secondly in the way you straw man and bully. Pathetic.
--
Cheers, Rob
Huge
2018-07-22 13:11:02 UTC
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Post by RJH
snip
Post by Huge
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit.
Awww, diddums. Those nasty evil banks, eh? That paid £35.4 *billion*
in taxes to the UK exchequer in 2016/17.
Billions? Really?
Yes. Really.
Post by RJH
Off what sort of income, do you think? And how much of
that income was obtained fraudulently, do you think? Billions, eh. Ah,
diddums :-)
Retail branch banking loses
Post by Huge
money. Lots of money. You cannot operate a business for any length of
time when it loses lots of money. Oh, and before anyone pipes up about
how it could be cross-subsidised from the nice profitable corporate
banking business, the UK Government just made the banks "ring-fence"
their retail operations. You can't have it both ways. The High Street
is dying. And so are High Street bank branches.
In short, to the original author of that innumerate,
Priceless!
poorly thought out,
Post by Huge
bigoted rant, shut the fuck up.
You are so utterly inept at presenting an argument. Firstly, in the way
you present a counter. It really is basic and you might want to read a
little. Secondly in the way you straw man and bully. Pathetic.
Since your response entirely consists of 'ad hominem' and "proof by
assertion" bigotry, I'm afraid I can only conclude that you're a hypocrite
and a moron, so off to the killfile with you. Have fun with all the other
'tards.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
RJH
2018-07-24 07:31:41 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by RJH
snip
Post by Huge
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit.
Awww, diddums. Those nasty evil banks, eh? That paid £35.4 *billion*
in taxes to the UK exchequer in 2016/17.
Billions? Really?
Yes. Really.
Post by RJH
Off what sort of income, do you think? And how much of
that income was obtained fraudulently, do you think? Billions, eh. Ah,
diddums :-)
Retail branch banking loses
Post by Huge
money. Lots of money. You cannot operate a business for any length of
time when it loses lots of money. Oh, and before anyone pipes up about
how it could be cross-subsidised from the nice profitable corporate
banking business, the UK Government just made the banks "ring-fence"
their retail operations. You can't have it both ways. The High Street
is dying. And so are High Street bank branches.
In short, to the original author of that innumerate,
Priceless!
poorly thought out,
Post by Huge
bigoted rant, shut the fuck up.
You are so utterly inept at presenting an argument. Firstly, in the way
you present a counter. It really is basic and you might want to read a
little. Secondly in the way you straw man and bully. Pathetic.
Since your response entirely consists of 'ad hominem' and "proof by
assertion" bigotry, I'm afraid I can only conclude that you're a hypocrite
and a moron, so off to the killfile with you. Have fun with all the other
'tards.
The defence rests :-)
--
Cheers, Rob
Sylvia Else
2018-07-22 02:27:39 UTC
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We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers.
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of doing
for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.

Ditto online banking. So much easier to transact my business from the
comfort of my home, than to go to a branch, and then wait. In case
people have short memories, waiting at a branch was a common occurrence.

Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.

Sylvia.
Huge
2018-07-22 09:21:36 UTC
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Post by Sylvia Else
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers.
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of doing
for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.
Because self-checkout terminals are utter shit? The worst UI in the
known universe. It's much quicker to go to a "checkout-chick" and then
you can pack while they scan. Yes, I use the self checkout for 2 or 3
items, but for a weekly shop? No way.
Post by Sylvia Else
Ditto online banking. So much easier to transact my business from the
comfort of my home, than to go to a branch, and then wait.
That at least is true.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Richard Kettlewell
2018-07-22 11:45:36 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of
doing for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.
Because self-checkout terminals are utter shit? The worst UI in the
known universe.
For me part of the advantage is they reduce the risk of getting stuck in
a queue behind someone pathologically slow.
Post by Huge
It's much quicker to go to a "checkout-chick" and then you can pack
while they scan. Yes, I use the self checkout for 2 or 3 items, but
for a weekly shop? No way.
My weekly shops are delivered, the totting up and packing is someone
else’s problem.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Sylvia Else
2018-07-22 12:35:59 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers.
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of doing
for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.
Because self-checkout terminals are utter shit? The worst UI in the
known universe. It's much quicker to go to a "checkout-chick" and then
you can pack while they scan. Yes, I use the self checkout for 2 or 3
items, but for a weekly shop? No way.
The UI's no doubt vary. I find that I don't have to interact much with
the UI, since almost everything just scans. Those occasions where
interactions are needed become routine [*], even if the UI is rubbish.

Sylvia

[*] At least, until the next pointless revamp of the UI, as if they
think customers will get bored with it, and shop somewhere else.
Huge
2018-07-22 13:13:41 UTC
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Post by Sylvia Else
Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers.
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of doing
for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.
Because self-checkout terminals are utter shit? The worst UI in the
known universe. It's much quicker to go to a "checkout-chick" and then
you can pack while they scan. Yes, I use the self checkout for 2 or 3
items, but for a weekly shop? No way.
The UI's no doubt vary. I find that I don't have to interact much with
the UI, since almost everything just scans. Those occasions where
interactions are needed become routine [*], even if the UI is rubbish.
I don't mean the computer UI, I mean the whole "Unexpected item in
the bagging area, push here, pull there, put your item on here" thing
while being shouted at by a recording controlled by software written by
an idiot. The whole experience sucks donkey dick.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
The Real Bev
2018-07-22 15:07:17 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers.
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of doing
for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.
The ones at Sam's Club and Walmart seem to work better than others. ONE
out-of-my-area Costco had self-checkout units, which were infinitely
better than waiting in the long Costco lines. Sam's is never as crowded
as Costco, possibly because their prices are a little higher. Products
are the same, but different. Stagg's chili rather than Cattle Drive,
etc. Aside from that, if you walked into one blindfolded you couldn't
tell the difference.

I wonder what the union rates for grocery checkers are. When I worked
at Sears back in the dark ages we had to add up everything by hand, work
out the tax, know about the merchandise so we could actually HELP
customers, make change, and if we were nice and it wasn't rush hour we
could put together a decent-looking gift package. A revolving charge (I
was always amazed, even at a young age, that people would pay a serious
premium to charge a few dollars worth of stuff) required something like
15 minutes to process, including a long distance phone call.

We got either one or two days training and were paid 10 cents/hour over
minimum wage -- the best rate around for department store clerks. I
thought it was funny that I, at 17, was explaining the differences
between different kinds of towels and sheets to women old enough to be
my grandmother.

We also wore high heels and could smoke in the restroom. Customers
could smoke on the floor, but we couldn't.
Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
Post by Huge
Because self-checkout terminals are utter shit? The worst UI in the
known universe. It's much quicker to go to a "checkout-chick" and then
you can pack while they scan. Yes, I use the self checkout for 2 or 3
items, but for a weekly shop? No way.
The UI's no doubt vary. I find that I don't have to interact much with
the UI, since almost everything just scans. Those occasions where
interactions are needed become routine [*], even if the UI is rubbish.
At Ralph's there's an attendant for 10 units, and (s)he always knows how
to fix the problem. Even WITH problems, better than waiting in a line.
Post by Huge
I don't mean the computer UI, I mean the whole "Unexpected item in
the bagging area, push here, pull there, put your item on here" thing
while being shouted at by a recording controlled by software written by
an idiot. The whole experience sucks donkey dick.
At least the ones at Ralph's no longer say WELCOME, VALUED CUSTOMER! I
really hated that. I also hated that the checkers at Vons were
instructed to call you by your name -- Thank you, Mrs. Jones. I don't
want everybody in the line to know my name. Maybe they stopped doing
that -- I certainly complained loudly about it, and I can't be the only one.

The Aldi's checkers are really fast, which is much appreciated.

On the whole, I like the self-checkout machines. Shopping is a chore to
be accomplished as quickly and efficiently as possible, not recreation.
--
Cheers, Bev
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves." -- Anon.
Huge
2018-07-22 15:17:54 UTC
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On 2018-07-22, The Real Bev <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[66 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
On the whole, I like the self-checkout machines. Shopping is a chore to
be accomplished as quickly and efficiently as possible, not recreation.
I completely agree, but I find the self-checkouts very stressful.

Our local supermarker also recently introduced self scanning, which I would
cheerfully use, since it means you don't have to do the "put it in the
trolley" (US: cart), "take it out of the trolley", "put it in the trolley",
"take it out of the trolley" dance, which is much more irksome than dealing
with a checkout-chick.

The first *5* times we used it, we were "selected" for a shoplifting check
(and then the assistant got sniffy when I called it that). And you can't
self-scan and then pay at a self-service checkout if you have alcohol. And
we always have alcohol. We stopped using them.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Sylvia Else
2018-07-22 20:35:34 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
Post by Huge
Post by Sylvia Else
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers.
They didn't have to convince me. I used them as soon as they were
available. Why would I want to wait for the privilege of spending my
time watching some checkout-chick do what I'm perfectly capable of doing
for myself in the same time, usually without having to wait.
Because self-checkout terminals are utter shit? The worst UI in the
known universe. It's much quicker to go to a "checkout-chick" and then
you can pack while they scan. Yes, I use the self checkout for 2 or 3
items, but for a weekly shop? No way.
The UI's no doubt vary. I find that I don't have to interact much with
the UI, since almost everything just scans. Those occasions where
interactions are needed become routine [*], even if the UI is rubbish.
I don't mean the computer UI, I mean the whole "Unexpected item in
the bagging area, push here, pull there, put your item on here" thing
while being shouted at by a recording controlled by software written by
an idiot. The whole experience sucks donkey dick.
Oh, I haven't noticed that in a while. I think the store I use has
stopped doing it.

Sylvia.
Theo
2018-07-25 11:59:54 UTC
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Post by Huge
I don't mean the computer UI, I mean the whole "Unexpected item in
the bagging area, push here, pull there, put your item on here" thing
while being shouted at by a recording controlled by software written by
an idiot. The whole experience sucks donkey dick.
The Waitrose ones don't do that, because they don't have a bagging area -
just a wooden shelf underneath. There's no weighing of items, so no sensors
to get grumpy. The UI is OK, and the touchscreen can be operated with a
cucumber.

OTOH I managed to crash one the other day - it caused a full reboot. Turns
out they run Windows Embedded POSReady 2009 [1] and the checkout app is
written in Java, with a very long list of modules that get loaded. In case
anyone wants to know the classes, I took photos of the backtrace :)

Theo

[1] End of support: 9 April 2019. I wonder what they'll do - newer POSReady
need a lot more RAM.
Huge
2018-07-25 14:52:55 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by Huge
I don't mean the computer UI, I mean the whole "Unexpected item in
the bagging area, push here, pull there, put your item on here" thing
while being shouted at by a recording controlled by software written by
an idiot. The whole experience sucks donkey dick.
The Waitrose ones don't do that, because they don't have a bagging area -
just a wooden shelf underneath. There's no weighing of items, so no sensors
to get grumpy. The UI is OK, and the touchscreen can be operated with a
cucumber.
OTOH I managed to crash one the other day - it caused a full reboot. Turns
out they run Windows Embedded POSReady 2009 [1] and the checkout app is
written in Java, with a very long list of modules that get loaded. In case
anyone wants to know the classes, I took photos of the backtrace :)
Theo
[1] End of support: 9 April 2019. I wonder what they'll do -
Nothing.
--
Today is Sweetmorn, the 60th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
mm0fmf
2018-07-22 16:11:17 UTC
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Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...

People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
Richard Kettlewell
2018-07-22 16:30:47 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
The alternative to the taxpayers footing the bill is that the customers
and owners of the business between them foot the bill for jobs that
could otherwise be partially or entirely automated away; and moreover
require the workers involved to waste their time on them. That doesn’t
seem like an improvement to me - I’d rather the costs were spread across
society as a whole and not tied into a system of makework.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
The Real Bev
2018-07-22 16:36:54 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
OTOH, grocery checkers are unionized and get paid a lot more than
minimum wage for a job that can be learned in one or two days. Plus
their vacation, sick leave, retirement and health benefits, etc. Sorry,
no sympathy from me.
--
Cheers, Bev
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real,
deliverable e-mail address. Of all the sins committed by the
spammers, destroying the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
(Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, news.admin.net-abuse.email)
Huge
2018-07-22 16:49:41 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
I'm retired. Give me your money.

Oh, you don't want to?

What a fucking selfish view...
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
mm0fmf
2018-07-22 17:51:24 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
I'm retired. Give me your money.
Oh, you don't want to?
What a fucking selfish view...
I am giving you my money now. Your state pension is paid out of my
taxes. Just like when you were working, your taxes paid the pensions of
those retired.
Huge
2018-07-22 18:40:34 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Huge
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
I'm retired. Give me your money.
Oh, you don't want to?
What a fucking selfish view...
I am giving you my money now. Your state pension is paid out of my
taxes.
Drivel. I don't get a State Pension. Yet.

*plonk*
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-22 17:35:30 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
You shouldn't base the society and economy on jobs. In particular, you
shouldn't create jobs artificially.

And, as people, we shouldn't define our value through our usefulness.
The society owes us a decent standard of living. Those people whose
labor is still needed in the production of value should have incentives
(= higher income) to put in the hours, but I believe fewer and fewer
human beings will be of use to the economy as automation takes over.

In fact, Trump happened because Clinton and the rest of the political
class couldn't grasp what is happening on a grand scale. We need
politicians who are ahead of the curve and can give people a vision and
assurances that the pursuit of happiness can be successful without jobs.


Marko
Dirk T. Verbeek
2018-07-22 20:45:13 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
You shouldn't base the society and economy on jobs. In particular, you
shouldn't create jobs artificially.
And, as people, we shouldn't define our value through our usefulness.
The society owes us a decent standard of living. Those people whose
labor is still needed in the production of value should have incentives
(= higher income) to put in the hours, but I believe fewer and fewer
human beings will be of use to the economy as automation takes over.
In fact, Trump happened because Clinton and the rest of the political
class couldn't grasp what is happening on a grand scale. We need
politicians who are ahead of the curve and can give people a vision and
assurances that the pursuit of happiness can be successful without jobs.
It is evident Clinton etc. missed feelings in a large swathe of the
population.

It is certainly not evident Trump is in contact with those people and
their feelings.

Nor is it evident the move to automatise a lot of jobs is at this point
causing unusual unemployment numbers, work is just moving to other skills.
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Marko
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-22 21:20:46 UTC
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Post by Dirk T. Verbeek
Nor is it evident the move to automatise a lot of jobs is at this
point causing unusual unemployment numbers, work is just moving to
other skills.
I, too, believe jobs will disappear and new jobs will be created.

But I also believe that the people who could do the previous jobs
couldn't for the most part do the latter jobs. What we'll have is a
massive unemployment simultaneously with a massive labor shortage.

And it's not going to be termporary. The new jobs will require skill
levels that are simply unattainable for the vast majority of the
population.

Maybe, in the end, only 30% of the working-age population can be
gainfully employed. What do we, as a society, have to offer the
remaining 70%? The 30% will produce more value than the current 95%. How
shall we distribute it to everybody's satisfaction?

Hint: "curl up and die" will not work.


Marko
The Real Bev
2018-07-22 22:01:16 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by Dirk T. Verbeek
Nor is it evident the move to automatise a lot of jobs is at this
point causing unusual unemployment numbers, work is just moving to
other skills.
I, too, believe jobs will disappear and new jobs will be created.
But I also believe that the people who could do the previous jobs
couldn't for the most part do the latter jobs. What we'll have is a
massive unemployment simultaneously with a massive labor shortage.
And it's not going to be termporary. The new jobs will require skill
levels that are simply unattainable for the vast majority of the
population.
Maybe, in the end, only 30% of the working-age population can be
gainfully employed. What do we, as a society, have to offer the
remaining 70%? The 30% will produce more value than the current 95%. How
shall we distribute it to everybody's satisfaction?
Hint: "curl up and die" will not work.
No. This is THE serious problem we face. What do we do with idle
population with no marketable skills? Pay them to watch TV all day
long? Can people do that without going nuts? Just how much do they get
paid? Can they afford to travel? Play sports? What DO
low-skill/low-intelligence people do with their spare time? I'm not
being snotty here, just worried. The line that divides low-skill from
high-skill is rising every day...
--
Cheers, Bev
Buckle Up. It makes it harder for the aliens
to suck you out of your car.
RS Wood
2018-07-23 01:21:30 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Hint: "curl up and die" will not work.
Actually, eventually, it /will/.
Post by The Real Bev
No. This is THE serious problem we face. What do we do with idle
population with no marketable skills? Pay them to watch TV all day
long? Can people do that without going nuts? Just how much do they
get paid? Can they afford to travel? Play sports? What DO
low-skill/low-intelligence people do with their spare time? I'm not
being snotty here, just worried. The line that divides low-skill from
high-skill is rising every day...
Agreed. With automation we have less need than ever for the unskilled,
and yet more unskilled workers than ever. It's not sustainable.

If your only contribution to society is bagging groceries, you've got
bad times ahead. At my local bank branch, the tellers seem to be hired
and maintained at minimum wage level, and minimum skill. And they're
closing branches quickly. I'm all in favor of online banking - it's
more convenient, faster, and less wasteful (fuel, time waiting, printing
and manipulating paper, etc.)

I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the apocalypse
are never too far around the corner, as always.
Huge
2018-07-23 09:16:48 UTC
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On 2018-07-23, RS Wood <***@therandymon.com> wrote:

[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the apocalypse
are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Paul Sture
2018-07-23 09:44:57 UTC
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Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the apocalypse
are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
--
The road to hell is paved with adverbs.
-- Stephen King
Huge
2018-07-23 11:23:35 UTC
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Post by Paul Sture
Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the apocalypse
are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
*Applause*
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Bob Eager
2018-07-23 12:06:49 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the
apocalypse are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
*Applause*
I was going to say 'cutbacks'.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Bruce Horrocks
2018-07-23 22:20:04 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the
apocalypse are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
*Applause*
I was going to say 'cutbacks'.
Unionization - seven to do the work of four. :-)
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Paul Sture
2018-07-23 22:53:52 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the
apocalypse are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
*Applause*
I was going to say 'cutbacks'.
Outsourcing.

There may be more of them, but it's bonuses all round for the
directors.
--
The road to hell is paved with adverbs.
-- Stephen King
RS Wood
2018-07-24 02:14:23 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the apocalypse
are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
*Applause*
Ha ha ha! Oops, my bad. The above post was sponsored by Laphroig.


Um let's see ... war, famine, death, pestilence, plus umm

* some guy interning from the local trade school and hoping for an
offer in case Pestilence quits the union,

* the annoying retiree who should have quit ages ago but is hanging on
for the health benefits and is too clever for Death

* the president's son in law, who can't even ride the fucking horse but
got a 400% pay raise anyway.


OK, I'm back to drinking.
Huge
2018-07-24 07:48:33 UTC
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Post by RS Wood
Post by Huge
Post by Paul Sture
Post by Huge
[26 lines snipped]
Post by RS Wood
I don't have an answer for you, but the seven horsemen of the apocalypse
are never too far around the corner, as always.
Seven?
Inflation.
*Applause*
Ha ha ha! Oops, my bad. The above post was sponsored by Laphroig.
Um let's see ... war, famine, death, pestilence, plus umm
I read that as "war, famine, death, pestilence, plus mum".
Post by RS Wood
* some guy interning from the local trade school and hoping for an
offer in case Pestilence quits the union,
* the annoying retiree who should have quit ages ago but is hanging on
for the health benefits and is too clever for Death
* the president's son in law, who can't even ride the fucking horse but
got a 400% pay raise anyway.
Which Pratchett story is it where the 4HotA don't turn up because they
go into a pub and War gets in a fight, Famine is eating all the peanuts
and Pestilence doesn't feel very well?
Post by RS Wood
OK, I'm back to drinking.
--
Today is Setting Orange, the 59th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-23 05:44:49 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Maybe, in the end, only 30% of the working-age population can be
gainfully employed. What do we, as a society, have to offer the
remaining 70%? The 30% will produce more value than the current 95%. How
shall we distribute it to everybody's satisfaction?
Hint: "curl up and die" will not work.
No. This is THE serious problem we face. What do we do with idle
population with no marketable skills? Pay them to watch TV all day
long? Can people do that without going nuts? Just how much do they get
paid? Can they afford to travel? Play sports? What DO
low-skill/low-intelligence people do with their spare time? I'm not
being snotty here, just worried. The line that divides low-skill from
high-skill is rising every day...
And maybe one day that line rises above all of humanity. The curse of
the original sin would be lifted, and we would be back in Eden.

It's a bit weird to believe that *wage labor* is a necessary ingredient
to a meaningful life.


Marko
The Real Bev
2018-07-23 06:16:48 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Maybe, in the end, only 30% of the working-age population can be
gainfully employed. What do we, as a society, have to offer the
remaining 70%? The 30% will produce more value than the current 95%. How
shall we distribute it to everybody's satisfaction?
Hint: "curl up and die" will not work.
No. This is THE serious problem we face. What do we do with idle
population with no marketable skills? Pay them to watch TV all day
long? Can people do that without going nuts? Just how much do they get
paid? Can they afford to travel? Play sports? What DO
low-skill/low-intelligence people do with their spare time? I'm not
being snotty here, just worried. The line that divides low-skill from
high-skill is rising every day...
And maybe one day that line rises above all of humanity. The curse of
the original sin would be lifted, and we would be back in Eden.
It's a bit weird to believe that *wage labor* is a necessary ingredient
to a meaningful life.
I think the good part is being productive rather than getting paid,
although the pay is certainly a way of keeping score even if it's not
actually necessary. Does anybody really like to feel that they're
useless?
--
Cheers, Bev
"I'm sorry I ever invented the Electoral College."
Al Gore 11/08/00
Huge
2018-07-23 09:16:04 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by Dirk T. Verbeek
Nor is it evident the move to automatise a lot of jobs is at this
point causing unusual unemployment numbers, work is just moving to
other skills.
I, too, believe jobs will disappear and new jobs will be created.
But I also believe that the people who could do the previous jobs
couldn't for the most part do the latter jobs. What we'll have is a
massive unemployment simultaneously with a massive labor shortage.
And it's already happening in the UK. Lots of unemployed coal miners, lots
of jobs for techies of some kind.
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
And it's not going to be termporary. The new jobs will require skill
levels that are simply unattainable for the vast majority of the
population.
+1
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Maybe, in the end, only 30% of the working-age population can be
gainfully employed. What do we, as a society, have to offer the
remaining 70%? The 30% will produce more value than the current 95%. How
shall we distribute it to everybody's satisfaction?
IMNHO, some kind of "national wage" is inevitable.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Roger Blake
2018-07-23 00:10:55 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The society owes us a decent standard of living.
No, "the society" does NOT owe us a decent standard of living. If you
want a decent standard of living you need to go out and earn it.

Some of the first things my dad taught me are that the world doesn't
owe me a living and there are no guarantees in life. That's the creed
that I live by.
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
assurances that the pursuit of happiness can be successful without jobs.
Of course what you'll need to do is use coercion and violence to forcibly
impose those values on others. That's what such lofty visions always boil
down to. Just who are you intending to loot at gunpoint in order to bring
about this communistic utopia?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-23 06:15:38 UTC
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Post by Roger Blake
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The society owes us a decent standard of living.
No, "the society" does NOT owe us a decent standard of living. If you
want a decent standard of living you need to go out and earn it.
That's a fine principle to go by when employers need your skills. But
what to do when there's no way to earn your living? Technology is making
profound changes to production. Human labor is becoming redundant.
Post by Roger Blake
Some of the first things my dad taught me are that the world doesn't
owe me a living and there are no guarantees in life. That's the creed
that I live by.
The world is changing. Our ancestors didn't have to face today's
questions.
Post by Roger Blake
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
assurances that the pursuit of happiness can be successful without jobs.
Of course what you'll need to do is use coercion and violence to
forcibly impose those values on others.
Usenet postings are not coercion and violence.

The basic value is compassion, which in Christian tradition is supreme
among the human instincts. It's your obligation as a human being to take
care of your fellow man. Individual charity has been the means of old,
but we have discovered that coordinated societal actions are cheaper and
much more effective than donations. That's why paying taxes is
mandatory.
Post by Roger Blake
That's what such lofty visions always boil down to. Just who are you
intending to loot at gunpoint in order to bring about this communistic
utopia?
I happen to live in a communistic utopia called Scandinavia. We have
dodged the Trump bullet so far, but the germs are there and they are
sprouting even here. Even here, the politicians are peddling age-old
answers to the unprecedented problem.


Marko
Huge
2018-07-23 09:24:45 UTC
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[19 lines snipped]
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by Roger Blake
Of course what you'll need to do is use coercion and violence to
forcibly impose those values on others.
Usenet postings are not coercion and violence.
The basic value is compassion, which in Christian tradition is supreme
I'm not a Christian.
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
among the human instincts. It's your obligation as a human being to take
care of your fellow man.
No it isn't.
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Individual charity has been the means of old,
but we have discovered that coordinated societal actions are cheaper and
much more effective than donations. That's why paying taxes is
mandatory.
Wow. So much wrong in that last sentence.

The reason I'm happy to pay my taxes is because I don't want to live behind
a big fence that keeps out the baying mobs, nor do I want to step over corpses
when I go out, not because of "Christian compassion". I care less than nothing
for my "fellow man". There are far too many of them, anyway.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-23 10:35:12 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by Roger Blake
Of course what you'll need to do is use coercion and violence to
forcibly impose those values on others.
Usenet postings are not coercion and violence.
The basic value is compassion, which in Christian tradition is supreme
I'm not a Christian.
Whether you are or not, the Christian ethical tradition reigns supreme
in European public discourse. Compassion and pity for anyone and
anything is quite a strong axiom even in Godless circles.
Post by Huge
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
among the human instincts. It's your obligation as a human being to
take care of your fellow man.
No it isn't.
When it comes to ethics, there are no objective absolutes. Of course,
there are subjective absolutes.

You and I differ here.
Post by Huge
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Individual charity has been the means of old, but we have discovered
that coordinated societal actions are cheaper and much more effective
than donations. That's why paying taxes is mandatory.
Wow. So much wrong in that last sentence.
The reason I'm happy to pay my taxes is because I don't want to live
behind a big fence that keeps out the baying mobs, nor do I want to
step over corpses when I go out, not because of "Christian
compassion". I care less than nothing for my "fellow man". There are
far too many of them, anyway.
Compassion is a mammalian instinct (shared with many birds) that grew
out of mothering. All of us have been blessed/cursed with varying
degrees of it. Christianity has simply singled it out above other
instincts.

Whether you are happy to pay taxes or not is secondary; taxes are
collected all the same. It is a happy coincidence if the principle of
least annoyance coincides with compassion. That is not at all
guaranteed. Pogroms and extermination programs have frequently been used
to deal with annoyances. In those cases, I will stand against you and on
the side of compassion.


Marko
Andy Burns
2018-07-23 11:21:01 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The basic value is compassion, which in Christian tradition is supreme
I'm not a Christian.
Neither am I (other than having been baptized without consent) but I
expect some christian values have rubbed off on you from living in a
christian country?

How are you on the 10 commandments? I don't bother with 1-3, am flexible
on 6, but the rest are decent enough rules to live up to.
Huge
2018-07-23 11:34:13 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Huge
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The basic value is compassion, which in Christian tradition is supreme
I'm not a Christian.
Neither am I (other than having been baptized without consent) but I
expect some christian values have rubbed off on you from living in a
christian country?
I guess there's "social Christianity", as opposed to "spiritual
Christianity"? I'm about as atheist as it's possible to be, so the
latter is irrelevant. I'd argue that the former has little or nothing
to do with Christianity.
Post by Andy Burns
How are you on the 10 commandments? I don't bother with 1-3, am flexible
on 6, but the rest are decent enough rules to live up to.
Well, the first thing I'm going to have to do is look them up, since I'm
not terribly interested in running my life by a set of rules drawn up
by 2000 year dead goat herders.

So ...

- You shall have no other gods before Me.

Don't care. There are no gods.

- You shall not make idols.

Don't care. Make what statues you like and worship them if you want
to. Just don't expect me to do so.

- You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

Don't care. He's not my God.

- Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Don't care. I have no "holy days".

- Honor your father and your mother.

Common sense.

- You shall not murder.

Common sense.

- You shall not commit adultery.

That depends entirely on what is meant by "adultery". I certainly don't
believe that marriage is a "union between one man and one woman,
ordained by god". Marriage is whatever we say it is. I'd say this one
is too vague as phrased to be any use.

- You shall not steal.

Common sense.

- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

"Don't tell lies". Wow, that's profound.

- You shall not covet.

Why not? Greed is good. Greed works.

So, 3 that are any use, and those don't require burning bushes, etc.

Does that answer your question?
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-23 11:45:20 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Huge
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The basic value is compassion, which in Christian tradition is supreme
I'm not a Christian.
Neither am I (other than having been baptized without consent) but I
expect some christian values have rubbed off on you from living in a
christian country?
How are you on the 10 commandments? I don't bother with 1-3, am
flexible on 6, but the rest are decent enough rules to live up to.
Christian ethics is grounded more on the Sermon on the Mount than the
Ten Commandments.


Marko
Huge
2018-07-23 09:21:09 UTC
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Post by Roger Blake
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The society owes us a decent standard of living.
No, "the society" does NOT owe us a decent standard of living. If you
want a decent standard of living you need to go out and earn it.
And what if that is not possible, no matter how well educated, smart
and hard working you are?
Post by Roger Blake
Some of the first things my dad taught me are that the world doesn't
owe me a living and there are no guarantees in life. That's the creed
that I live by.
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
assurances that the pursuit of happiness can be successful without jobs.
Of course what you'll need to do is use coercion and violence to forcibly
impose those values on others. That's what such lofty visions always boil
down to. Just who are you intending to loot at gunpoint in order to bring
about this communistic utopia?
So, you're happy to live in a gated community and travel to work in an
armed convoy to stop the starving mobs from breaking in, taking everything
you have and killing you?
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Sylvia Else
2018-07-22 20:43:37 UTC
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Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
There are numerous jobs that no longer exist. Should we have
artificially kept them around so that people could feel gainfully
employed doing things that are not required?

Checkout chicks and bank tellers are just more of the same.

Sylvia.
Huge
2018-07-22 21:19:37 UTC
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Post by Sylvia Else
Post by mm0fmf
Post by Sylvia Else
Yes, it means less work for checkout-chicks, and bank tellers, but I
don't owe them a living.
What a fucking selfish view...
People without jobs are a burden to others in society. If they don't
work, then tax payers foot the bill for greater benefit demands (in
sensible and humane countries such as European ones). If they do work,
then they have money to spend on goods and taxes themselves.
There are numerous jobs that no longer exist. Should we have
artificially kept them around so that people could feel gainfully
employed doing things that are not required?
Checkout chicks and bank tellers are just more of the same.
Precisely.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 57th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Richard Kettlewell
2018-07-22 08:09:44 UTC
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All over the western world banks are shutting down cash machines and
branches. They are trying to push you into using their digital payments
and digital banking infrastructure. Just like Google wants everyone to
access and navigate the broader internet via its privately controlled
search portal, so financial institutions want everyone to access and
navigate the broader economy through their systems.
Another aim is to cut costs in order to boost profits. Branches require
staff. Replacing them with standardised self-service apps allows the
senior managers of financial institutions to directly control and
monitor interactions with customers.
I’m pretty comfortable with improved service leading to an uptick in
profit. There’s a difference between gouging customers and making a
reasonable return on an investment.

As it happens although I don’t work for a bank I do benefit fairly
directly from increasing use of electronic payments systems. So while I
promise that my opinions below are mine own and not my employer’s,
readers can be skeptical of that if they want to.
Banks, of course, tell us a different story about why they do this. I
recently got a letter from my bank telling me that they are shutting
down local branches because "customers are turning to digital", and they
are thus "responding to changing customer preferences". I am one of the
customers they are referring to, but I never asked them to shut down the
branches.
What’s the argument here? All future changes to payments systems must
have 100% customer consent? Or is it just Brett Scott’s personal consent
that matters?
There is a feedback loop going on here. In closing down their branches,
or withdrawing their cash machines, they make it harder for me to use
those services. I am much more likely to "choose" a digital option if
the banks deliberately make it harder for me to choose a non-digital
option.
...or if it’s just naturally more convenient. Which, in fact, it is; see
some discussion below.
We can illustrate this with the example of self-checkout tills at
supermarkets. The underlying agenda is to replace checkout staff with
self-service machines to cut costs. But supermarkets have to convince
their customers. They thus initially present self-checkout as a
convenient alternative. When some people then use that alternative, the
supermarket can cite that as evidence of a change in customer behaviour,
which they then use to justify a reduction in checkout employees. This
in turn makes it more inconvenient to use the checkout staff, which in
turn makes customers more likely to use the machines. They slowly wean
you off staff, and "nudge" you towards self-service.
Since it is indeed quicker and more convenient than using a staffed
checkout, I don’t see the problem here.
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit. Payments companies such as Visa and Mastercard want to increase
the volume of digital payments services they sell, while banks want to
cut costs. The nudge requires two parts. First, they must increase the
inconvenience of cash, ATMs and branches. Second, they must vigorously
promote the alternative. They seek to make people "learn" that they want
digital, and then "choose" it.
Cash is already inconvenient enough without any nudging:

- It wears holes in my clothes.
- It requires continual visits to ATMs.
- It gets lost.
- It goes stale. (Personally I’m organized enough to deal with old
money losing its general acceptability but within the last 12 months
I’ve converted over a hundred pounds from old pound coins and old
tenners on behalf of people close to me.)
- Picking out the right amount is slow and annoying, and in
particular...
- Small change is fiddly.

My main concern is that not everyone I want to give money to is capable
of taking electronic payments. My favorite cheapo Chinese restaurant
will probably sort itself out sooner or later but homeless people are
not likely to start carrying EMV terminals around with them.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Computer Nerd Kev
2018-07-22 23:07:27 UTC
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Post by Richard Kettlewell
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit. Payments companies such as Visa and Mastercard want to increase
the volume of digital payments services they sell, while banks want to
cut costs. The nudge requires two parts. First, they must increase the
inconvenience of cash, ATMs and branches. Second, they must vigorously
promote the alternative. They seek to make people "learn" that they want
digital, and then "choose" it.
- It wears holes in my clothes.
- It requires continual visits to ATMs.
- It gets lost.
- It goes stale. (Personally I?m organized enough to deal with old
money losing its general acceptability but within the last 12 months
I?ve converted over a hundred pounds from old pound coins and old
tenners on behalf of people close to me.)
- Picking out the right amount is slow and annoying, and in
particular...
- Small change is fiddly.
But you know when it gets stolen from you, and it doesn't leave a
connected record of everywhere you've been and shopped. I try to
only use my card with one ATM and always pay in cash, to minimise
the chance of exposing my card to a skimmer. I also use a separate
pre-paid credit card for online payments.

I'll need an outright thump rather than a nudge before I accept
the risks of paying electronically in stores. Similarly for
online banking.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Richard Kettlewell
2018-07-23 07:24:22 UTC
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit. Payments companies such as Visa and Mastercard want to increase
the volume of digital payments services they sell, while banks want to
cut costs. The nudge requires two parts. First, they must increase the
inconvenience of cash, ATMs and branches. Second, they must vigorously
promote the alternative. They seek to make people "learn" that they want
digital, and then "choose" it.
- It wears holes in my clothes.
- It requires continual visits to ATMs.
- It gets lost.
- It goes stale. (Personally I?m organized enough to deal with old
money losing its general acceptability but within the last 12 months
I?ve converted over a hundred pounds from old pound coins and old
tenners on behalf of people close to me.)
- Picking out the right amount is slow and annoying, and in
particular...
- Small change is fiddly.
But you know when it gets stolen from you,
You know when your account gets raided too, if you can be bothered to
check, and start a rather better charge of undoing than recovering
stolen cash.

As it happens every attempt on any of mine was spotted by a card issuer
first (and prevented).
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
and it doesn't leave a connected record of everywhere you've been and
shopped.
What is your threat model here?
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Huge
2018-07-23 09:18:50 UTC
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On 2018-07-23, Richard Kettlewell <***@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[29 lines snipped]
Post by Richard Kettlewell
As it happens every attempt on any of mine was spotted by a card issuer
first (and prevented).
+1
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
The Real Bev
2018-07-23 15:04:58 UTC
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Post by Huge
[29 lines snipped]
Post by Richard Kettlewell
As it happens every attempt on any of mine was spotted by a card issuer
first (and prevented).
+1
Only 2 problems since forever.

(1) Some jerk bought a plane ticket from [city] to Heathrow on my card.
I got it deleted easily from my CC, but I wanted more. I wanted the
thief's head on a platter. I figured the FBI would be interested --
since I had the ticket number and other information they could just go
to the airport and pick the guy up. The [city] FBI guy was very nice,
but said that so much of exactly this same stuff happened that they just
couldn't do it. Hmph.

(2) Somebody made a LD phone call to Las Vegas back when you had to pay
for stuff like that. Couple of bucks. That came off immediately too.

I've gotten email about strange (to the issuer) charges on my card which
were legit. That was nice -- they were non-standard purchases and they
noticed it. One of them was when I bought a car from a dealership...
--
Cheers, Bev
Please hassle me, I thrive on stress.
Huge
2018-07-23 15:10:50 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Huge
[29 lines snipped]
Post by Richard Kettlewell
As it happens every attempt on any of mine was spotted by a card issuer
first (and prevented).
+1
Only 2 problems since forever.
(1) Some jerk bought a plane ticket from [city] to Heathrow on my card.
I got it deleted easily from my CC, but I wanted more. I wanted the
thief's head on a platter. I figured the FBI would be interested --
since I had the ticket number and other information they could just go
to the airport and pick the guy up. The [city] FBI guy was very nice,
but said that so much of exactly this same stuff happened that they just
couldn't do it. Hmph.
That mirrors my experience. Some arsehole bought a $700 leather jacket
and $200 worth of Chris Rock (*) tickets on my card (and in retrospect, and
to my embarrassment, I know exactly where and when my card was skimmed -
at a carpet store in Indoa). He had the tickets delivered to a postal
address, so I assumed all the police had to do was go round there and
beat on the person who answered the door. They weren't interested, either.

:o(

(* I *loathe* Chris Rock!)

[4 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
I've gotten email about strange (to the issuer) charges on my card which
were legit. That was nice -- they were non-standard purchases and they
noticed it.
The software that watches for "non-standard" purchases is very clever!
Post by The Real Bev
One of them was when I bought a car from a dealership...
Wow. Serious credit limit or cheap car? :o)
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Andy Burns
2018-07-23 15:28:58 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
I bought a car from a dealership...
Wow. Serious credit limit or cheap car?
Or just a debit card (do US banks issue them?)
The Real Bev
2018-07-23 16:07:07 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
I bought a car from a dealership...
Wow. Serious credit limit or cheap car?
Or just a debit card (do US banks issue them?)
They do, but I don't think they give you a rebate like credit cards do.
Free money is free money, right? Costs nothing to bend over to pick
up a penny!
--
Cheers, Bev
An organizer for the "Million Agoraphobics March" expressed
disappointment in the turnout for last weekend's event.
Huge
2018-07-23 16:07:11 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
I bought a car from a dealership...
Wow. Serious credit limit or cheap car?
Or just a debit card (do US banks issue them?)
Debit cards have limits too, you know?
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Andy Burns
2018-07-23 17:10:02 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
I bought a car from a dealership...
Wow. Serious credit limit or cheap car?
Or just a debit card (do US banks issue them?)
Debit cards have limits too, you know?
I got a phone call to query £29K the other week ...
The Real Bev
2018-07-23 16:05:29 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Huge
[29 lines snipped]
Post by Richard Kettlewell
As it happens every attempt on any of mine was spotted by a card issuer
first (and prevented).
+1
Only 2 problems since forever.
(1) Some jerk bought a plane ticket from [city] to Heathrow on my card.
I got it deleted easily from my CC, but I wanted more. I wanted the
thief's head on a platter. I figured the FBI would be interested --
since I had the ticket number and other information they could just go
to the airport and pick the guy up. The [city] FBI guy was very nice,
but said that so much of exactly this same stuff happened that they just
couldn't do it. Hmph.
That mirrors my experience. Some arsehole bought a $700 leather jacket
and $200 worth of Chris Rock (*) tickets on my card (and in retrospect, and
to my embarrassment, I know exactly where and when my card was skimmed -
at a carpet store in Indoa). He had the tickets delivered to a postal
address, so I assumed all the police had to do was go round there and
beat on the person who answered the door. They weren't interested, either.
:o(
(* I *loathe* Chris Rock!)
[4 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
I've gotten email about strange (to the issuer) charges on my card which
were legit. That was nice -- they were non-standard purchases and they
noticed it.
The software that watches for "non-standard" purchases is very clever!
Post by The Real Bev
One of them was when I bought a car from a dealership...
Wow. Serious credit limit or cheap car? :o)
I had transferred the money into my bank account previously, so when
they ran it they saw I could cover it. Hey, 1% back is free money. Is
$16K cheap now? Last time I bought a car it was under $1K! I don't
ever want to fix a car again for the rest of my life, so I bought a 3-YO
Corolla.

Local cops won't even come unless the thief/burglar is still on the
premises. Just make a report on their web page. Excellent way to keep
crime stats down, right? No idea what they do about assault etc.
problems where the violator has already escaped. Maybe they send out
the police equivalent of a candy-striper to pat your hand and say 'There
there, it will be all right..."
--
Cheers, Bev
An organizer for the "Million Agoraphobics March" expressed
disappointment in the turnout for last weekend's event.
Eric Pozharski
2018-07-24 09:28:20 UTC
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with <pj4ucb$6pc$***@dont-email.me> The Real Bev wrote:
*SKIP*
Post by The Real Bev
Local cops won't even come unless the thief/burglar is still on the
premises. Just make a report on their web page. Excellent way to
keep crime stats down, right? No idea what they do about assault etc.
problems where the violator has already escaped. Maybe they send out
the police equivalent of a candy-striper to pat your hand and say
'There there, it will be all right..."
Let me guess, their excuse is "working minimal wages" and "branches are
closing". Makes me welcome our new robotic overlords.
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
The Real Bev
2018-07-24 15:08:46 UTC
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Post by Eric Pozharski
*SKIP*
Post by The Real Bev
Local cops won't even come unless the thief/burglar is still on the
premises. Just make a report on their web page. Excellent way to
keep crime stats down, right? No idea what they do about assault etc.
problems where the violator has already escaped. Maybe they send out
the police equivalent of a candy-striper to pat your hand and say
'There there, it will be all right..."
Let me guess, their excuse is "working minimal wages" and "branches are
closing". Makes me welcome our new robotic overlords.
Long ago there was a movie called Future Cop with Ernest Borgnine and
John Amos, and Michael Shannon as the android. Didn't last long, but it
was pleasant. I'd be OK with that.

They filmed one 30-second scene across the street from my house. It
took all day. I never thought much of Borgnine up until then, but he
was incredibly nice to all the kids who had gathered around to watch. I
wish I could find the photos I took.
--
Cheers, Bev
It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.
Bob Eager
2018-07-23 20:45:52 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
I've gotten email about strange (to the issuer) charges on my card
which were legit. That was nice -- they were non-standard purchases
and they noticed it.
The software that watches for "non-standard" purchases is very clever!
I always seem to get pulled up on things like purchases from CPC (which I
do a lot). Every now an then one of them is blocked, although it isn't an
unusual amount.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Bruce Horrocks
2018-07-23 22:58:18 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
(1) Some jerk bought a plane ticket from [city] to Heathrow on my card.
 I got it deleted easily from my CC, but I wanted more.  I wanted the
thief's head on a platter.  I figured the FBI would be interested --
since I had the ticket number and other information they could just go
to the airport and pick the guy up.  The [city] FBI guy was very nice,
but said that so much of exactly this same stuff happened that they just
couldn't do it.  Hmph.
That ticket was 'converted' to cash (either refunded, or exchanged for
another flight which was then later refunded, or sold via a mule to an
unsuspecting innocent on Craig's List or whatever) long before you even
noticed the charge on your statement

The only thing that can be said for certain is that the original thief
never had any intention of traveling on it.
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
The Real Bev
2018-07-24 03:19:21 UTC
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Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by The Real Bev
(1) Some jerk bought a plane ticket from [city] to Heathrow on my card.
I got it deleted easily from my CC, but I wanted more. I wanted the
thief's head on a platter. I figured the FBI would be interested --
since I had the ticket number and other information they could just go
to the airport and pick the guy up. The [city] FBI guy was very nice,
but said that so much of exactly this same stuff happened that they just
couldn't do it. Hmph.
That ticket was 'converted' to cash (either refunded, or exchanged for
another flight which was then later refunded, or sold via a mule to an
unsuspecting innocent on Craig's List or whatever) long before you even
noticed the charge on your statement
The only thing that can be said for certain is that the original thief
never had any intention of traveling on it.
OK, it makes me feel better that there was never a hope in hell of
catching him. I wonder how he chose <city> to Heathrow. The only
reason I don't name the city is that the FBI guy was nice and honest,
and he or his fellow G-men might get shit for that if it were known.
--
Cheers, Bev
"A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person
or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even
possibly incurring losses." -- C.M.Cipolla
Rich
2018-07-24 11:09:02 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by The Real Bev
(1) Some jerk bought a plane ticket from [city] to Heathrow on my card.
I got it deleted easily from my CC, but I wanted more. I wanted the
thief's head on a platter. I figured the FBI would be interested --
since I had the ticket number and other information they could just go
to the airport and pick the guy up. The [city] FBI guy was very nice,
but said that so much of exactly this same stuff happened that they just
couldn't do it. Hmph.
That ticket was 'converted' to cash (either refunded, or exchanged for
another flight which was then later refunded, or sold via a mule to an
unsuspecting innocent on Craig's List or whatever) long before you even
noticed the charge on your statement
The only thing that can be said for certain is that the original thief
never had any intention of traveling on it.
OK, it makes me feel better that there was never a hope in hell of
catching him. I wonder how he chose <city> to Heathrow.
The thief likely already knew that some number of individuals who would
attempt to travel on a black market ticket already were traveling from
<city> to Heathrow. So they picked it likely because they knew they
could liquidate it for cash quickly when it was for that particular
leg. This is, of course, presuming it was not quickly refunded for
cash via the airline.

It is also possible there is a secondary criminal enterprise mule'ing
something (drugs, etc.) via <city> to Heathrow, and the thief may have
been part of this enterprise.

All guesses of course. But Bruce is right, the origional CC thief was
very likely not sitting in that seat on that flight when it arrived in
Heathrow.
Computer Nerd Kev
2018-07-23 22:48:59 UTC
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Post by Richard Kettlewell
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Richard Kettlewell
- It wears holes in my clothes.
- It requires continual visits to ATMs.
- It gets lost.
- It goes stale. (Personally I?m organized enough to deal with old
money losing its general acceptability but within the last 12 months
I?ve converted over a hundred pounds from old pound coins and old
tenners on behalf of people close to me.)
- Picking out the right amount is slow and annoying, and in
particular...
- Small change is fiddly.
But you know when it gets stolen from you,
You know when your account gets raided too, if you can be bothered to
check, and start a rather better charge of undoing than recovering
stolen cash.
But it's a lot easier to check your account's transactions if you
very rarely use the card anywhere but one ATM. As it is I sometimes
read a transaction and have a moment of panic when I can't remember
any possibility of having made it, but eventually remember the
circumstances of being caught out at an unusual place/purchase.
With my memory, I wouldn't have a hope trying to pick unauthorised
transactions if I used the card all over the place. Unless they were
overseas at least.
Post by Richard Kettlewell
As it happens every attempt on any of mine was spotted by a card issuer
first (and prevented).
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
and it doesn't leave a connected record of everywhere you've been and
shopped.
What is your threat model here?
Future governments sticking their snouts too deeply into the
intelligence trough mainly, but I also just presume that if
information exists there's some small potential for anyone
to get a hold of it. If it doesn't exist, there isn't, and I
don't have to worry about it. Simple.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Paul Sture
2018-07-23 23:02:38 UTC
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Post by Richard Kettlewell
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
and it doesn't leave a connected record of everywhere you've been and
shopped.
What is your threat model here?
Privacy and data mining.

Recommended reading, Bruce Schneier's "Data and Goliath". It's quite
an eye opener.
--
The road to hell is paved with adverbs.
-- Stephen King
Huge
2018-07-23 09:18:07 UTC
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit. Payments companies such as Visa and Mastercard want to increase
the volume of digital payments services they sell, while banks want to
cut costs. The nudge requires two parts. First, they must increase the
inconvenience of cash, ATMs and branches. Second, they must vigorously
promote the alternative. They seek to make people "learn" that they want
digital, and then "choose" it.
- It wears holes in my clothes.
- It requires continual visits to ATMs.
- It gets lost.
- It goes stale. (Personally I?m organized enough to deal with old
money losing its general acceptability but within the last 12 months
I?ve converted over a hundred pounds from old pound coins and old
tenners on behalf of people close to me.)
- Picking out the right amount is slow and annoying, and in
particular...
- Small change is fiddly.
But you know when it gets stolen from you, and it doesn't leave a
connected record of everywhere you've been and shopped. I try to
only use my card with one ATM and always pay in cash, to minimise
the chance of exposing my card to a skimmer. I also use a separate
pre-paid credit card for online payments.
I'll need an outright thump rather than a nudge before I accept
the risks of paying electronically in stores. Similarly for
online banking.
That's a considerable overeaction for what is a tiny risk (to you). In
the UK, the responsibility (and costs) of card skimming fall to the
bank. I've had my card skimmed three times in 20 years and it never cost
me a penny.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Computer Nerd Kev
2018-07-23 22:55:25 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Financial institutions, likewise, are trying to nudge us towards a
cashless society and digital banking. The true motive is corporate
profit. Payments companies such as Visa and Mastercard want to increase
the volume of digital payments services they sell, while banks want to
cut costs. The nudge requires two parts. First, they must increase the
inconvenience of cash, ATMs and branches. Second, they must vigorously
promote the alternative. They seek to make people "learn" that they want
digital, and then "choose" it.
- It wears holes in my clothes.
- It requires continual visits to ATMs.
- It gets lost.
- It goes stale. (Personally I?m organized enough to deal with old
money losing its general acceptability but within the last 12 months
I?ve converted over a hundred pounds from old pound coins and old
tenners on behalf of people close to me.)
- Picking out the right amount is slow and annoying, and in
particular...
- Small change is fiddly.
But you know when it gets stolen from you, and it doesn't leave a
connected record of everywhere you've been and shopped. I try to
only use my card with one ATM and always pay in cash, to minimise
the chance of exposing my card to a skimmer. I also use a separate
pre-paid credit card for online payments.
I'll need an outright thump rather than a nudge before I accept
the risks of paying electronically in stores. Similarly for
online banking.
That's a considerable overeaction for what is a tiny risk (to you). In
the UK, the responsibility (and costs) of card skimming fall to the
bank. I've had my card skimmed three times in 20 years and it never cost
me a penny.
Yes it's the same here (Australia). But if I'm on a trip somewhere
trying to buy fuel and suddenly I can't pay, that's still a very
bad day.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Huge
2018-07-24 07:46:10 UTC
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[30 lines snipped]
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Huge
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I'll need an outright thump rather than a nudge before I accept
the risks of paying electronically in stores. Similarly for
online banking.
That's a considerable overeaction for what is a tiny risk (to you). In
the UK, the responsibility (and costs) of card skimming fall to the
bank. I've had my card skimmed three times in 20 years and it never cost
me a penny.
Yes it's the same here (Australia). But if I'm on a trip somewhere
trying to buy fuel and suddenly I can't pay, that's still a very
bad day.
And if someone steals your cash, then what?

It's never, ever, happened to me. Besides, I have a second credit card
and a debit card.
--
Today is Setting Orange, the 59th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Roger Blake
2018-07-23 00:13:04 UTC
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...
Cash is freedom and privacy. To me that far outweighs any of the
"inconveniences' that you mention.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nomen Nescio
2018-07-23 13:25:27 UTC
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Post by Roger Blake
...
Cash is freedom and privacy. To me that far outweighs any of the
"inconveniences' that you mention.
Well said. You're one of the smart guys. There's also things that only
cash can buy: postage due, passport fees, anonymous vanilla credit
cards, black market goods, ... oh, and all your bank cards become
worthless when a seller's credit acceptance app goes down.
Huge
2018-07-23 14:01:18 UTC
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Post by Nomen Nescio
Post by Roger Blake
...
Cash is freedom and privacy. To me that far outweighs any of the
"inconveniences' that you mention.
Well said. You're one of the smart guys. There's also things that only
cash can buy: postage due, passport fees, anonymous vanilla credit
cards, black market goods, ... oh, and all your bank cards become
worthless when a seller's credit acceptance app goes down.
Well, the final one at least has some relevance, the others being either
irrelevant or parochial to the USA.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 58th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Ivan Shmakov
2018-07-24 13:17:18 UTC
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[...]
[...]

Yet it has its advantages as well:

* cash doesn't make tracking you or your purchases any easier;
(I think it was in this very newsgroup that I've seen
a mention of Google search suggestions "spilling" from one's
tablet to desktop and vice versa? I can recall only one case
of something like that happening to me; still, I can't help
but wonder if there are any technical obstacles to using your
purchases history for, say, targeted advertising?);

* cash doesn't require you to run non-free software on your
device;

* cash doesn't require cellular connectivity to use, either.

Of course, I understand that freedom is never "free," and
privacy's neither, so when I have to pay for the privilege
of using cash with my own time, I don't hesitate.
Post by Richard Kettlewell
My main concern is that not everyone I want to give money to is
capable of taking electronic payments.
My main concern, on the contrary, is that not everyone /I/ want
to give money to is capable of taking cash.
Post by Richard Kettlewell
My favorite cheapo Chinese restaurant will probably sort itself out
sooner or later but homeless people are not likely to start carrying
EMV terminals around with them.
Yes.
--
FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/
Mike Spencer
2018-07-24 21:12:56 UTC
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Post by Ivan Shmakov
My main concern, on the contrary, is that not everyone /I/ want
to give money to is capable of taking cash.
Just so. I have a work-around but it's extra bother.
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Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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