Discussion:
on recommending me a printer
(too old to reply)
Robert Girault
2018-07-31 18:02:41 UTC
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Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.

I appreciate your input on this. Thank you!

(*) Must

Must be laser black and white.

Must print on both sides of the page.

The tray to hold paper should be a drawer, not anything else. I know
some trays are not like that but have a cover to keep dust off of
paper, but I still prefer the drawer.

Must have wireless NIC.

Should be just printer, not scanners, copy machines.

(*) Optional

A fast one. I don't mind paying a little more for more speed. But
it's a printer for one person. How much do print? Say 100 pages per
week.

Brand. I like quality. Things should work. I hate to have to reboot
something so it might work again. I hate paper jams. I hate printers
in fact. But I need them.

If I'd get no help from anyone, I'd end up buying some HP model that
fits the criteria. Most likely.
Eli the Bearded
2018-07-31 20:11:34 UTC
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Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
FYI: comp.periphs.printers exists and is still alive.
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Must
Must be laser black and white.
Must print on both sides of the page.
Brother, eg HL-L2320D. $80 today in a store walking distance from me.
I've had three or four Brother monochrome printers in the last decade,
they all just work. Mac/Linux/Windows, with duplexing, printing
Postscript or PCL.

The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
Post by Robert Girault
The tray to hold paper should be a drawer, not anything else. I know
some trays are not like that but have a cover to keep dust off of
paper, but I still prefer the drawer.
No change in recommendation.
Post by Robert Girault
Must have wireless NIC.
Ah, that changes things. Brother, eg HL-L2370DW. $100 today in the store
I can walk to. The W in the model name indicates "wireless". Again, just
works.
Post by Robert Girault
Should be just printer, not scanners, copy machines.
No change in recommendation.
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Optional
A fast one. I don't mind paying a little more for more speed. But
it's a printer for one person. How much do print? Say 100 pages per
week.
The HL-L2370DW claims 36PPM. I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because
full ream paper tray and 48PPM. I print 25 copies of 5 sheet documents
at once multiple times per week (plus miscellaneous other printing).
Post by Robert Girault
Brand. I like quality. Things should work. I hate to have to reboot
something so it might work again. I hate paper jams. I hate printers
in fact. But I need them.
I've had about 40 jams over about 40k pages printed according the the
printer diagnostics.
Post by Robert Girault
If I'd get no help from anyone, I'd end up buying some HP model that
fits the criteria. Most likely.
I'm so done with HP printers.

Elijah
------
really wants a printer that will self-collate the covers for those documents
Tom
2018-07-31 20:47:50 UTC
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Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
Brother, eg HL-L2320D. $80 today in a store walking distance from me.
I've had three or four Brother monochrome printers in the last decade,
they all just work. Mac/Linux/Windows, with duplexing, printing
Postscript or PCL.
I second the Brother lasers. Have had a few and all worked well.
I currently have a 3170-CDW which produces at a fair rate once it gets
started. Transferring the job to the printer and first page output seems
to take some time. Most of my printing is from FreeBSD or Windows.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
If I'd get no help from anyone, I'd end up buying some HP model that
fits the criteria. Most likely.
I'm so done with HP printers.
Agreed! Something changed about 15 years ago...


Tom
The Real Bev
2018-07-31 20:56:55 UTC
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Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
FYI: comp.periphs.printers exists and is still alive.
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Must
Must be laser black and white.
Must print on both sides of the page.
Brother, eg HL-L2320D. $80 today in a store walking distance from me.
I've had three or four Brother monochrome printers in the last decade,
they all just work. Mac/Linux/Windows, with duplexing, printing
Postscript or PCL.
Ditto.

Cheapest Brother laser printer available. HL-something, no problems
since I bought it in 2009. I'm on the third toner cartridge (~$20 for
the bigger one from ebay). No jams. I don't use it often, but when I
do it just works.
Post by Eli the Bearded
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
Post by Robert Girault
The tray to hold paper should be a drawer, not anything else. I know
some trays are not like that but have a cover to keep dust off of
paper, but I still prefer the drawer.
No change in recommendation.
Post by Robert Girault
Must have wireless NIC.
Ah, that changes things. Brother, eg HL-L2370DW. $100 today in the store
I can walk to. The W in the model name indicates "wireless". Again, just
works.
Post by Robert Girault
Should be just printer, not scanners, copy machines.
No change in recommendation.
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Optional
A fast one. I don't mind paying a little more for more speed. But
it's a printer for one person. How much do print? Say 100 pages per
week.
The HL-L2370DW claims 36PPM. I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because
full ream paper tray and 48PPM. I print 25 copies of 5 sheet documents
at once multiple times per week (plus miscellaneous other printing).
Post by Robert Girault
Brand. I like quality. Things should work. I hate to have to reboot
something so it might work again. I hate paper jams. I hate printers
in fact. But I need them.
The cheap Brother printers are very light and just FEEL cheesy. Doesn't
matter, they seem to work fine forever. If I needed one and didn't have
an elderly Husqvarna already I'd buy a Brother sewing machine just
because of this printer.

Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked right
and jammed paper all the time.
Post by Eli the Bearded
I've had about 40 jams over about 40k pages printed according the the
printer diagnostics.
Post by Robert Girault
If I'd get no help from anyone, I'd end up buying some HP model that
fits the criteria. Most likely.
I'm so done with HP printers.
Elijah
------
really wants a printer that will self-collate the covers for those documents
Back in the dark ages when I worked in a real office I had a large job
jam in the middle of a double-sided collation. The recovery
instructions were NOT clear. Ever since then I prefer single-sided and
do-it-myself collating. If I had large jobs to do now I might feel
differently, but I doubt it.
--
Cheers, Bev
Some people just can't be helped; you take 'em out of the rat race
for 5 minutes and they end up missing the rats! --XR650LDave
Huge
2018-07-31 21:12:37 UTC
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On 2018-07-31, The Real Bev <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[59 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked right
and jammed paper all the time.
Which is why I refer to this firm as "Samdung". Because all their products
are shit.
--
Today is Boomtime, the 66th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
The Real Bev
2018-08-01 03:05:37 UTC
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Post by Huge
[59 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked right
and jammed paper all the time.
Which is why I refer to this firm as "Samdung". Because all their products
are shit.
Our Samsung 60" TV developed horizontal lines after we'd had it 4 years.
"Terribly sorry, only a one-year warranty, here's our authorized
repair shop address..." Shop said it would cost $1400 to replace the
screen and it wouldn't be worth it.

It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
--
Cheers, Bev
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a thumb.
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-08-01 05:21:19 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked
right and jammed paper all the time.
Which is why I refer to this firm as "Samdung". Because all their
products are shit.
Our Samsung 60" TV developed horizontal lines after we'd had it 4
years. "Terribly sorry, only a one-year warranty, here's our
authorized repair shop address..." Shop said it would cost $1400 to
replace the screen and it wouldn't be worth it.
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
We've owned a few Samsung products, including TV sets, and haven't had
problems with them, apart from some minor clumsy software design
choices.


Marko
Huge
2018-08-01 09:16:04 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Huge
[59 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked right
and jammed paper all the time.
Which is why I refer to this firm as "Samdung". Because all their products
are shit.
Our Samsung 60" TV developed horizontal lines after we'd had it 4 years.
"Terribly sorry, only a one-year warranty, here's our authorized
repair shop address..." Shop said it would cost $1400 to replace the
screen and it wouldn't be worth it.
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
Good.

After many years of happy Sony ownership, we allowed ourselves to be persuaded
to buy a 65" Samdung TV. It's a PoS. It crashes a lot (at least weekly), the
Samdung sound bar loses connection (at least weekly), the "SMART" part of
it is a hideous, buggy, hard to use heap of crap, the sound bar gets in the
way of the remote control sensor, so my wife has to wave it in the air to
get it to work and doubtless there are other things I've forgotten. I try
not to think about it; it's bad for my blood pressure. I too will never buy
another Samdung product.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 67th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Bob Eager
2018-08-01 11:22:21 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Huge
[59 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked
right and jammed paper all the time.
Which is why I refer to this firm as "Samdung". Because all their
products are shit.
Our Samsung 60" TV developed horizontal lines after we'd had it 4 years.
"Terribly sorry, only a one-year warranty, here's our authorized
repair shop address..." Shop said it would cost $1400 to replace the
screen and it wouldn't be worth it.
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
Good.
After many years of happy Sony ownership, we allowed ourselves to be
persuaded to buy a 65" Samdung TV. It's a PoS. It crashes a lot (at
least weekly), the Samdung sound bar loses connection (at least weekly),
the "SMART" part of it is a hideous, buggy, hard to use heap of crap,
the sound bar gets in the way of the remote control sensor, so my wife
has to wave it in the air to get it to work and doubtless there are
other things I've forgotten. I try not to think about it; it's bad for
my blood pressure. I too will never buy another Samdung product.
We have a Samdung too. I had to return it to factory settings to get some
old apps back, as the new ones didn't work. One day they pushed out an
update that totally changed the user interface from 'acceptable' to
'awful'. The iPlayer app stopped working for months at a time because the
BBC did some update and they didn't keep up. It still works, but we have
given up on the 'smart' part and plugged in a FreeView box that is much
supeior, despite being secondhand and quite old.

For those interested, it's an old Humax HDR Fox-T2, with custom firmware.
It also has a nice web interface now. It cost me about £40.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-08-01 11:35:32 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
We have a Samdung too. I had to return it to factory settings to get
some old apps back, as the new ones didn't work. One day they pushed
out an update that totally changed the user interface from
'acceptable' to 'awful'. The iPlayer app stopped working for months at
a time because the BBC did some update and they didn't keep up. It
still works, but we have given up on the 'smart' part and plugged in a
FreeView box that is much supeior, despite being secondhand and quite
old.
For those interested, it's an old Humax HDR Fox-T2, with custom
firmware. It also has a nice web interface now. It cost me about £40.
Oh, maybe that's the reason for the different experience between me and
the rest of you. I always used the TV for watching TV. If I need
anything "smart," I use a laptop and an HDMI cable.


Marko
Bob Eager
2018-08-01 11:44:19 UTC
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Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Post by Bob Eager
We have a Samdung too. I had to return it to factory settings to get
some old apps back, as the new ones didn't work. One day they pushed
out an update that totally changed the user interface from 'acceptable'
to 'awful'. The iPlayer app stopped working for months at a time
because the BBC did some update and they didn't keep up. It still
works, but we have given up on the 'smart' part and plugged in a
FreeView box that is much supeior, despite being secondhand and quite
old.
For those interested, it's an old Humax HDR Fox-T2, with custom
firmware. It also has a nice web interface now. It cost me about £40.
Oh, maybe that's the reason for the different experience between me and
the rest of you. I always used the TV for watching TV. If I need
anything "smart," I use a laptop and an HDMI cable.
That can't be very convenient in the case when you want to pause the
broadcast when you go to make a cup of tea. Or want to run it back a bit
because you missed something. Or decide to record *the whole thing* for
future viewing when it's already started.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-08-01 13:52:30 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Oh, maybe that's the reason for the different experience between me
and the rest of you. I always used the TV for watching TV. If I need
anything "smart," I use a laptop and an HDMI cable.
That can't be very convenient in the case when you want to pause the
broadcast when you go to make a cup of tea. Or want to run it back a
bit because you missed something. Or decide to record *the whole
thing* for future viewing when it's already started.
I don't classify pausing as "smart."

We have a hard disk connected to the TV's USB socket. That, together
with the remote's pause button, is enough to implement pausing. It's
also enough for elementary scheduled recording.

However, we have a separate (Samsung!) PVR device for more advanced
recording and playback options.


Marko
Robert Girault
2018-08-01 12:21:05 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Huge
[59 lines snipped]
Post by The Real Bev
Its predecessor was a cheap Samsung equivalent that never worked right
and jammed paper all the time.
Which is why I refer to this firm as "Samdung". Because all their products
are shit.
Our Samsung 60" TV developed horizontal lines after we'd had it 4
years. "Terribly sorry, only a one-year warranty, here's our
authorized repair shop address..." Shop said it would cost $1400 to
replace the screen and it wouldn't be worth it.
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I know someone who bought Samsung smart TV 42" or 46" (can't recall the
model) and after about 7 years this funny problem appeared: after tuning
into a specific channel and trying to tune into another, the TV stops
obeying the remote control and after a few seconds, it turns off. When
you turn it back on, it's still on the same stuck channel and you have a
second chance to change channels. You might have to try a few times
until you make it.

I have a ``smart'' Samsung TV, also 42" or 46", don't know the model
from the top of my head. I haven't had any problems yet, thankfully.

I'm not so much a tv-person, so I use it just like a regular TV.
However I see that mobile apps are able to connect to the TV and display
the videos there, but I can hardly do that with my TV because most of
the time it doesn't work. The Youtube app works, but most others are
programmed just for Chrome cast. So it turns out that people without a
SMART TV are better served than I am with a SMART TV simply because I
don't own a Chrome cast.
Roger Blake
2018-08-01 13:32:39 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
--
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NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
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Huge
2018-08-01 15:17:47 UTC
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Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit as I'm
prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap of cack by
buying another one?
--
Today is Pungenday, the 67th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Bob Eager
2018-08-01 15:25:15 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit as
I'm prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap of cack
by buying another one?
In any case, a 20 year old unit would be very different. Different
design, probably different factory.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Huge
2018-08-01 16:12:43 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit as
I'm prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap of cack
by buying another one?
In any case, a 20 year old unit would be very different. Different
design, probably different factory.
Profit goes to same company.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 67th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
Bob Eager
2018-08-01 22:40:18 UTC
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Post by Huge
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit as
I'm prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap of
cack by buying another one?
In any case, a 20 year old unit would be very different. Different
design, probably different factory.
Profit goes to same company.
Yes, but a 20 year old unit might be built to a better standard (and
probably was).
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
The Real Bev
2018-08-02 03:10:07 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit as
I'm prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap of
cack by buying another one?
In any case, a 20 year old unit would be very different. Different
design, probably different factory.
Profit goes to same company.
Yes, but a 20 year old unit might be built to a better standard (and
probably was).
OTOH, our first printer in the late 70s was a Centronics. KaCHUNK
kaCHUNK kaCHUNK... and it lasted maybe a year. Sturdy. Heavy. REALLY
heavy. We thought it would last forever, but then the smoke started to
leak out.
--
Cheers, Bev
Why do men's hearts beat faster, their knees get weak, their throats
become dry and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather
clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.
Roger Blake
2018-08-02 03:32:16 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
OTOH, our first printer in the late 70s was a Centronics. KaCHUNK
kaCHUNK kaCHUNK... and it lasted maybe a year. Sturdy. Heavy. REALLY
heavy. We thought it would last forever, but then the smoke started to
leak out.
I have a Panasonic dot-matrix printer purchased something like 30 years
ago. It still works and I still use it to print multi-part forms. (My
first printer was an Epson MX-80 which I think is still kicking around
somehwere but it has not been fired up for decades.) My primary printer
though is an inexpensive Samsung laser purchased about six years ago.
It's been fine but doesn't see heavy use.

I've actually got quite a bit of old electronics dating from the 1950s
through 1990s that is still operational. Amazing how well some of that
old gear keeps the smoke sealed inside.
--
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Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

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Scott Alfter
2018-08-03 03:46:12 UTC
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Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
OTOH, our first printer in the late 70s was a Centronics. KaCHUNK
kaCHUNK kaCHUNK... and it lasted maybe a year. Sturdy. Heavy. REALLY
heavy. We thought it would last forever, but then the smoke started to
leak out.
I have a Panasonic dot-matrix printer purchased something like 30 years
ago. It still works and I still use it to print multi-part forms.
I have an Apple Imagewriter in storage, purchased new in 1985. It worked
the last time I used it. I suspect it'd only need a new ribbon to get it
running (and it looks like Amazon has multiple compatible options).

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Michael Black
2018-08-03 04:39:36 UTC
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Post by Scott Alfter
I have an Apple Imagewriter in storage, purchased new in 1985. It worked
the last time I used it. I suspect it'd only need a new ribbon to get it
running (and it looks like Amazon has multiple compatible options).
My first printer was a Radio Shack dot matrix in 1982, really slow, fairly
loud and hardly quality printing. But I paid about $500 for it here in
Canada, and it was about as cheap as I could get that year for printing
listings, and it just kept on going, just needing new ribbons. I gave it
away about 25 years ago, I assume if it's not in a dump somewhere, it's
still running.

They weren't build to last, but they weren't built to be as cheap as
possible.

When my HP 4P broke a few months ago, ironically as I was moving it to a
new location, I thought of digging out my Startronics NX-1000 which I did
buy new, for 2 or 3 hundred dollars in 1989, which lies in it's box in the
basement, but I'm not sure I can revert to that after 15 years of laser
printing. But it didn't even have many years of use on it, because four
years after I got it, I switched to a Mac Plus, and found an Imagewriter
for not much at a garage sale. I don't think I still have it, but it was
heavy and well built, and surely did just keep on going.

I'm glad we can get so much so much cheaper now, but it certainly explains
why our expectations aren't so high. Pay $500 for a printer, and you're
going to spend money to repair it if needed, but for a hundred dollars or
less for a new printer, labor costs for repair will be a significant
percentage of the cost of a new printer.

Michael
Bob Eager
2018-08-02 11:55:56 UTC
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Post by The Real Bev
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy
another Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit
as I'm prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap
of cack by buying another one?
In any case, a 20 year old unit would be very different. Different
design, probably different factory.
Profit goes to same company.
Yes, but a 20 year old unit might be built to a better standard (and
probably was).
OTOH, our first printer in the late 70s was a Centronics. KaCHUNK
kaCHUNK kaCHUNK... and it lasted maybe a year. Sturdy. Heavy. REALLY
heavy. We thought it would last forever, but then the smoke started to
leak out.
OTOH, I have an HP LaserJet 4M+ manufactured in 1993, that has been in
almost daily use.

It's had some new rollers, and that's all.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Michael Black
2018-08-02 14:55:17 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Huge
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy
another Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
When it comes to "things I own", I've sampled as much Samdung shit
as I'm prepared to. Why would I reward them for this festering heap
of cack by buying another one?
In any case, a 20 year old unit would be very different. Different
design, probably different factory.
Profit goes to same company.
Yes, but a 20 year old unit might be built to a better standard (and
probably was).
OTOH, our first printer in the late 70s was a Centronics. KaCHUNK
kaCHUNK kaCHUNK... and it lasted maybe a year. Sturdy. Heavy. REALLY
heavy. We thought it would last forever, but then the smoke started to
leak out.
OTOH, I have an HP LaserJet 4M+ manufactured in 1993, that has been in
almost daily use.
It's had some new rollers, and that's all.
I got a HP Laserjet 4P in 2003 for $15 at the local Rotary Club garage
sale, the only thing I noticed wrong with it was the panel over the
memory, and that might have fallen off on the way home. There's never
been a problem, and of course it was a fairly expensive printer to begin
with. Sadly, in shifting things around, I broke a bit of plastic, and
suddenly an error appears, so I'm giving up on it. A dollar a year is
very good value. Though, I assume now that laser printers can be had so
cheap, I won't get the longevity from a hundred dollar laser printer.

Michael
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-02 19:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob Eager
OTOH, I have an HP LaserJet 4M+ manufactured in 1993, that has been in
almost daily use.
I had a HP LaserJet 2200DN, manufactured sometime around 2001 - 2003. It
worked great for a couple of years, and then the internal fonts got
corrupted so things would print wrong using common fonts. It was out of
warranty and there was no clear fix. I have a saved message where I
describe the problem:

On the self test page, for example, there is one case where there is
an "M" on a line right above a "3", and the bottom end of the 3 comes
up to smoothly join with the start of the "M".

ASCII art rendition:

|\ /|
| V |
| |
| |
| __
|/ \
| __/
| \
\__/

Ignoring inflation, I'm pretty sure the three Brother laser printers
I've had since I switched away from that HP have cost less combined than
the 2200DN cost me. Even today, Google is finding prices between $149
(used) and $802 (new old stock). Unless you need one of the odd
interfaces that old printer had (infrared! worked great with my Palm
Pilot V and my irda-capable laptop), a $100 Brother HL-L2370DW is
probably a better idea.

(None of the Brothers failed, they were replaced for other reasons, like
printer speed.)

Elijah
------
printing from the Palm Pilot, eg, always used the built-in fonts
Bob Eager
2018-08-02 20:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bob Eager
OTOH, I have an HP LaserJet 4M+ manufactured in 1993, that has been in
almost daily use.
I had a HP LaserJet 2200DN, manufactured sometime around 2001 - 2003. It
worked great for a couple of years, and then the internal fonts got
corrupted so things would print wrong using common fonts. It was out of
warranty and there was no clear fix.
I should have said that the LaserJet was acquired in 1996, for no cost! I
know its history before that; it was junked because the fuser had failed
and it was deemed cheaper to buy a new 5L instead!

I bought a new lamp for the fuser [*] and managed to fit it myself. I
suspect it failed when moved to a new office.

[*] The lamp was ordered from the USA (to the UK). I paid a fortune in
carriage and customs, and this turned out to be because I had
accidentally been sent 10 of them (but paid for 1). The supplier deemed
it uneconomic to return them; the sale of 3 of them reclained all of my
costs including the purchase price!
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Ivan Shmakov
2018-08-01 15:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works
great. Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw
conclusions about reliability of the company's product line.
Seconded.

For two more data points, I use a Samsung SyncMaster 743N
display right now to type this message, which I've bought, I
believe, in 2008.

As for the printers, I have a HP LaserJet 1020, manufactured in
2005, so bought c. 2006, I guess. About the only inconvenience
I can readily recall is that it requires non-free firmware to run.
(The cartridge was refilled at a service several times, and the
drum replaced once -- for some ridiculously low price, like under
10 USD at the time.)
--
FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/
The Real Bev
2018-08-01 16:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roger Blake
Post by The Real Bev
It really wasn't worth $750/year to own it. We'll never buy another
Samsung product, and our friends won't either.
I have a Samsung TV that is over 20 years old and it still works great.
Neither yours nor mine is a large enough sample to draw conclusions
about reliability of the company's product line.
You're correct. However, a 1-year warranty on an electronic device that
costs more than a car is unacceptable. The only local authorized
Samsung repair shop was in a poor area 30 miles away and shared space
with an insurance agency and an auto upholstery shop. I liked the guys
and assume they were competent and honest, but I expected something more
than third-world service from a big-time company.

I read about taking the thing apart and tweaking around with the
internal cable(s) to solve similar problems. The guys might have been
willing to do that and charge money for it, but I suspect that the
problem was NOT solvable by that method and the guys knew it and were
honest about it -- they didn't even mention it, and it would have
probably meant a couple of $hundred for them.

Repeat -- for the price, it should have lasted longer than 4 years. We
don't normally buy expensive stuff, so the annoyance is MUCH greater
than might be expected.
--
Cheers, Bev
"When I was a kid my dad once joked that the best way to
prevent being on a plane with someone carrying a bomb
would be to bring your own bomb and not detonate it.
Sounded convincing. What are the odds that two people
board, each with a bomb?" -- Rowdy
Robert Girault
2018-08-01 12:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
FYI: comp.periphs.printers exists and is still alive.
Awesome.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Must
Must be laser black and white.
Must print on both sides of the page.
Brother, eg HL-L2320D. $80 today in a store walking distance from me.
I've had three or four Brother monochrome printers in the last decade,
they all just work. Mac/Linux/Windows, with duplexing, printing
Postscript or PCL.
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
The tray to hold paper should be a drawer, not anything else. I know
some trays are not like that but have a cover to keep dust off of
paper, but I still prefer the drawer.
No change in recommendation.
Post by Robert Girault
Must have wireless NIC.
Ah, that changes things. Brother, eg HL-L2370DW. $100 today in the store
I can walk to. The W in the model name indicates "wireless". Again, just
works.
Post by Robert Girault
Should be just printer, not scanners, copy machines.
No change in recommendation.
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Optional
A fast one. I don't mind paying a little more for more speed. But
it's a printer for one person. How much do print? Say 100 pages per
week.
The HL-L2370DW claims 36PPM. I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because
full ream paper tray and 48PPM. I print 25 copies of 5 sheet documents
at once multiple times per week (plus miscellaneous other printing).
How does HL-L2360DW compare to HL-L2370DW? I suppose it's the same
printer.

[...]
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
If I'd get no help from anyone, I'd end up buying some HP model that
fits the criteria. Most likely.
I'm so done with HP printers.
Good to know.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Elijah
------
really wants a printer that will self-collate the covers for those documents
What's to self-collate the covers of a document?

Thank you very much!
Rich
2018-08-01 12:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Must
Must be laser black and white.
Must print on both sides of the page.
Brother, eg HL-L2320D. $80 today in a store walking distance from me.
I've had three or four Brother monochrome printers in the last decade,
they all just work. Mac/Linux/Windows, with duplexing, printing
Postscript or PCL.
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
No, that does not mean that at all.

A duplexer is hardware that allows the printer to turn the sheet over
and print on the second side of the sheet without human intervention.
Robert Girault
2018-08-02 20:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rich
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Must
Must be laser black and white.
Must print on both sides of the page.
Brother, eg HL-L2320D. $80 today in a store walking distance from me.
I've had three or four Brother monochrome printers in the last decade,
they all just work. Mac/Linux/Windows, with duplexing, printing
Postscript or PCL.
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
No, that does not mean that at all.
A duplexer is hardware that allows the printer to turn the sheet over
and print on the second side of the sheet without human intervention.
Ah, that makes sense! Thanks for educating me. I looked up the word
and guessed what could've been. Thanks!
Dan Purgert
2018-08-01 18:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
[...]
Must be laser black and white.
Must print on both sides of the page.
[...]
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
No, a duplexer just means that the printer can flip the paper over, and
print on both sides automatically.
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
[...]
A fast one. I don't mind paying a little more for more speed. But
it's a printer for one person. How much do print? Say 100 pages per
week.
The HL-L2370DW claims 36PPM. I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because
full ream paper tray and 48PPM. I print 25 copies of 5 sheet documents
at once multiple times per week (plus miscellaneous other printing).
How does HL-L2360DW compare to HL-L2370DW? I suppose it's the same
printer.
Close enough anyway - probably the *70 is slightly faster or has a
larger papertray, or similar "enhancements". Best place to check would
be the relevant datasheets.

And I agree pretty wholeheartedly with everyone so far -- Brother
printers are pretty solid. Admittedly a little weird with the setup
(some models still need 32-bit/multiarch for the filter), but other than
that they're pretty dead simple to get running.
--
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-02 00:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
"Duplexer" is the printer name for the parts that flip a page over to
print on the second side.
Post by Robert Girault
How does HL-L2360DW compare to HL-L2370DW? I suppose it's the same
printer.
I expect it is the same printer hardware but with a slight firmware change.
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
really wants a printer that will self-collate the covers for those documents
What's to self-collate the covers of a document?
The covers need to print on different paper. So what I want is a printer
that can be configured to print one page on the paper from one tray and
then four pages on the paper from another tray and then to repeat that
process for 24 additional copies. Instead of me having to print 25
copies of the body, put cover paper into the bypass tray, print 25
copies of the cover, and then to hand sort them.

Because that hand sorting is a real annoyance (and the largest timesuck
for the human) when you make 600+ of these a month.

Elijah
------
also the covers do not need to duplex, they printed on one side only
Robert Girault
2018-08-02 21:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> writes:

[...]
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
really wants a printer that will self-collate the covers for those documents
What's to self-collate the covers of a document?
The covers need to print on different paper. So what I want is a printer
that can be configured to print one page on the paper from one tray and
then four pages on the paper from another tray and then to repeat that
process for 24 additional copies. Instead of me having to print 25
copies of the body, put cover paper into the bypass tray, print 25
copies of the cover, and then to hand sort them.
Because that hand sorting is a real annoyance (and the largest timesuck
for the human) when you make 600+ of these a month.
[...]

You're a serious printer user! I'm glad to follow your advice on the
model to purchase. I almost bought one without asking for advice. That
was close. Thank you!
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-02 23:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
"Duplexer" is the printer name for the parts that flip a page over to
print on the second side.
Post by Robert Girault
How does HL-L2360DW compare to HL-L2370DW? I suppose it's the same
printer.
I expect it is the same printer hardware but with a slight firmware change.
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
really wants a printer that will self-collate the covers for those documents
What's to self-collate the covers of a document?
The covers need to print on different paper. So what I want is a printer
that can be configured to print one page on the paper from one tray and
then four pages on the paper from another tray and then to repeat that
process for 24 additional copies. Instead of me having to print 25
copies of the body, put cover paper into the bypass tray, print 25
copies of the cover, and then to hand sort them.
You've already got a printer that can do that.

The HL-L6200DW has a 'multi-purpose tray' that folds out from the front.
Load the cover paper into that and, when you print, choose the
'letterhead' option which will print the first page from the
multi-purpose tray and the rest from the normal tray.
Post by Eli the Bearded
Because that hand sorting is a real annoyance (and the largest timesuck
for the human) when you make 600+ of these a month.
Elijah
------
also the covers do not need to duplex, they printed on one side only
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-03 02:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bruce Horrocks
You've already got a printer that can do that.
The HL-L6200DW has a 'multi-purpose tray' that folds out from the front.
No. That printer did not produce acceptable output (see discussion of
corrupt fonts earlier) and was scrapped.[*] The years 2003 to 2015 in my
life did not require collation of printed output. (2002 and 2003 did.)

[*] Here in the San Francisco Bay Area it is routine to attempt to give
electronics away for free by leaving them near the curb. That was
the method used, and it worked. For all-in-one and plain inkjets,
that method never seems to work, based on my observations of what
gets put out and stays out. But people take free laser printers.

Elijah
------
and is now not buying HP products
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-03 19:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bruce Horrocks
The HL-L6200DW has a 'multi-purpose tray' that folds out from the front.
No. That printer did not produce acceptable output (see discussion of
corrupt fonts earlier) and was scrapped.[*]
I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because
?
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-03 23:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bruce Horrocks
The HL-L6200DW has a 'multi-purpose tray' that folds out from the front.
No. That printer did not produce acceptable output (see discussion of
corrupt fonts earlier) and was scrapped.[*]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, that was not my article. That's the first of the thread.

In <eli$***@qaz.wtf> I wrote:
I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because

You are right. I got confused about model names and thought you meant my
old HP. I *do* have a Brother HL-L6200DW printer and it is in active use.

The reason I have not been able to use the Brother HL-L6200DW to
automatically collate is that the "multi-purpose tray" (which I have
previously referred to as a "bypass tray") seems to always take priority
over the other tray. That is, I cannot address the trays individually
with the software I have. There is no "letterhead" option as you called
it. For the record, I've tried this with recent MacOS and Linux (both CUPS
based printing).

If there is media in the bypass tray, it gets depleted before anything
gets used from the regular tray.

There was a longish thread in comp.lang.postscript with subject "on
paper tray selection" I started last January, root message ID:
<eli$***@qz.little-neck.ny.us> that got me exactly no where with
this goal of collated print jobs.

There was also an earlier thread in comp.periphs.printers with subject
"printing with a cover sheet (Mac)" I started last November, root
message ID: <eli$***@qz.little-neck.ny.us> that also got me no
where. That was a repost of an earlier article (same month) posted to
comp.sys.mac.misc that no one replied to.

I can see looking back over my posting history on this, I'm terrible
with getting the exact printer model correct. :^(

For the record, a solution to this printing problem is something I'd
spend real coin for, because it is such a pain living without it.

Elijah
------
probably misread HL... as HP... in that previous reply
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-05 00:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bruce Horrocks
The HL-L6200DW has a 'multi-purpose tray' that folds out from the front.
No. That printer did not produce acceptable output (see discussion of
corrupt fonts earlier) and was scrapped.[*]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No, that was not my article. That's the first of the thread.
Ah, apologies. Thunderbird always confuses me!
Post by Eli the Bearded
I've got a HL-L6200DW now ($250) because
You are right. I got confused about model names and thought you meant my
old HP. I *do* have a Brother HL-L6200DW printer and it is in active use.
No worries.
Post by Eli the Bearded
The reason I have not been able to use the Brother HL-L6200DW to
automatically collate is that the "multi-purpose tray" (which I have
previously referred to as a "bypass tray") seems to always take priority
over the other tray. That is, I cannot address the trays individually
with the software I have. There is no "letterhead" option as you called
it. For the record, I've tried this with recent MacOS and Linux (both CUPS
based printing).
If there is media in the bypass tray, it gets depleted before anything
gets used from the regular tray.
There was a longish thread in comp.lang.postscript with subject "on
this goal of collated print jobs.
Have just scanned through it and the contributors seem to have missed
the /ManualFeed entry. (This is Level 2 PostScript onwards.)

Are you able to modify the PostScript to do:

<< /ManualFeed 1 >> setpagedevice

before the first page and then

<< /ManualFeed 0 >> setpagedevice

for the remainder?

This true/false setting should do the obvious - cause the manual feed
tray to be used while the setting is true.

A word of warning: setpagedevice erases the page so it needs to be
positioned in the PS source before anything is drawn on the first page,
then after the first is printed and before any of the second is drawn.
Post by Eli the Bearded
There was also an earlier thread in comp.periphs.printers with subject
"printing with a cover sheet (Mac)" I started last November, root
where. That was a repost of an earlier article (same month) posted to
comp.sys.mac.misc that no one replied to >
I can see looking back over my posting history on this, I'm terrible
with getting the exact printer model correct. :^(
For the record, a solution to this printing problem is something I'd
spend real coin for, because it is such a pain living without it.
Elijah
------
probably misread HL... as HP... in that previous reply
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-05 05:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Have just scanned through it and the contributors seem to have missed
the /ManualFeed entry. (This is Level 2 PostScript onwards.)
<< /ManualFeed 1 >> setpagedevice
before the first page and then
<< /ManualFeed 0 >> setpagedevice
for the remainder?
The file I have handy is a PDF version, so I converted that to PS with
pdf2ps then put those commands in the page setup (%%BeginPageSetup)
sections for pages one and two. It did not work, everything printed from
the bypass tray. I tried again with the sections for pages one and
three, still no go.

For testing purposes I then made a simple short postscript program using
that setting:

%!PS
<< /ManualFeed 1 >> setpagedevice

%Page 1: medium square
newpath 200 250 moveto
200 0 rlineto 0 200 rlineto -200 0 rlineto 0 -200 rlineto
closepath stroke
showpage

%Page 2: not a square
newpath 250 250 moveto
250 0 rlineto 0 250 rlineto -150 0 rlineto 0 -150 rlineto
closepath stroke
showpage

<< /ManualFeed 0 >> setpagedevice

%Page 3: big square
newpath 300 300 moveto
300 0 rlineto 0 300 rlineto -300 0 rlineto 0 -300 rlineto
closepath stroke
showpage

Again, everything prints from the tray. (Note that I put the setting
after page two because the default setting for the print is duplex, so
pages one and two are on the same sheet of paper.)
Post by Bruce Horrocks
This true/false setting should do the obvious - cause the manual feed
tray to be used while the setting is true.
A word of warning: setpagedevice erases the page so it needs to be
positioned in the PS source before anything is drawn on the first page,
then after the first is printed and before any of the second is drawn.
ps2pdf has output where the showpage is invoked by some subroutine, I
didn't try to trace the output. The simple program was my substitute
test, three different pages, each of which is very simple to follow and
simple to know when the page is fresh.

It's possible, and I'd need some work to figure out a fix for this if it
is happening, that the CUPS system is rewriting the postscript in a way
that loses that setting. I'm not entirely sure what CUPS does under the
covers, but I know it has ways generate postscript, and I wouldn't rule
out something like it printing to a virtual device and generating the
postscript from what that device shows.

(half hour of playing later)

I'm fairly certain now that CUPS *is* stripping that out. But it doesn't
matter. I used ipptool to send the postscript directly to the printer
bypassing CUPS altogether and the printer printed (on paper from the
bypass tray):

ERROR NAME:
typecheck
COMMAND;
setpagedevice
OPERAND STACK;
--dicttype--

Which sure looks like a postscript error message saying /ManualFeed is
not allowed in the setpagedevice dictionary (but could be something
else, like not liking 0 / 1 for the boolean, since I only know a smidgen
of postscript).


Elijah
------
doesn't know how complete the Brother Postscript implementation is
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-05 10:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Have just scanned through it and the contributors seem to have missed
the /ManualFeed entry. (This is Level 2 PostScript onwards.)
<< /ManualFeed 1 >> setpagedevice
before the first page and then
<< /ManualFeed 0 >> setpagedevice
for the remainder?
The file I have handy is a PDF version, so I converted that to PS with
pdf2ps then put those commands in the page setup (%%BeginPageSetup)
sections for pages one and two. It did not work, everything printed from
the bypass tray. I tried again with the sections for pages one and
three, still no go.
For testing purposes I then made a simple short postscript program using
%!PS
<< /ManualFeed 1 >> setpagedevice
%Page 1: medium square
newpath 200 250 moveto
200 0 rlineto 0 200 rlineto -200 0 rlineto 0 -200 rlineto
closepath stroke
showpage
%Page 2: not a square
newpath 250 250 moveto
250 0 rlineto 0 250 rlineto -150 0 rlineto 0 -150 rlineto
closepath stroke
showpage
<< /ManualFeed 0 >> setpagedevice
%Page 3: big square
newpath 300 300 moveto
300 0 rlineto 0 300 rlineto -300 0 rlineto 0 -300 rlineto
closepath stroke
showpage
Again, everything prints from the tray. (Note that I put the setting
after page two because the default setting for the print is duplex, so
pages one and two are on the same sheet of paper.)
Post by Bruce Horrocks
This true/false setting should do the obvious - cause the manual feed
tray to be used while the setting is true.
A word of warning: setpagedevice erases the page so it needs to be
positioned in the PS source before anything is drawn on the first page,
then after the first is printed and before any of the second is drawn.
ps2pdf has output where the showpage is invoked by some subroutine, I
didn't try to trace the output. The simple program was my substitute
test, three different pages, each of which is very simple to follow and
simple to know when the page is fresh.
It's possible, and I'd need some work to figure out a fix for this if it
is happening, that the CUPS system is rewriting the postscript in a way
that loses that setting. I'm not entirely sure what CUPS does under the
covers, but I know it has ways generate postscript, and I wouldn't rule
out something like it printing to a virtual device and generating the
postscript from what that device shows.
(half hour of playing later)
I'm fairly certain now that CUPS *is* stripping that out. But it doesn't
matter. I used ipptool to send the postscript directly to the printer
bypassing CUPS altogether and the printer printed (on paper from the
typecheck
COMMAND;
setpagedevice
OPERAND STACK;
--dicttype--
Which sure looks like a postscript error message saying /ManualFeed is
not allowed in the setpagedevice dictionary (but could be something
else, like not liking 0 / 1 for the boolean, since I only know a smidgen
of postscript).
I think you're right. Please try

<< /ManualFeed true >> setpagedevice

<< /ManualFeed false >> setpagedevice

in the above and see what happens.
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-06 06:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by Eli the Bearded
I'm fairly certain now that CUPS *is* stripping that out. But it doesn't
matter. I used ipptool to send the postscript directly to the printer
bypassing CUPS altogether and the printer printed (on paper from the
typecheck
COMMAND;
setpagedevice
OPERAND STACK;
--dicttype--
Which sure looks like a postscript error message saying /ManualFeed is
not allowed in the setpagedevice dictionary (but could be something
else, like not liking 0 / 1 for the boolean, since I only know a smidgen
of postscript).
I think you're right. Please try
<< /ManualFeed true >> setpagedevice
<< /ManualFeed false >> setpagedevice
in the above and see what happens.
Document prints, taking all pages from the bypass tray. It really seems
like this printer has no concept of programmable tray selection. :^(

Elijah
------
such a promsing idea, too
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-06 14:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by Eli the Bearded
I'm fairly certain now that CUPS *is* stripping that out. But it doesn't
matter. I used ipptool to send the postscript directly to the printer
bypassing CUPS altogether and the printer printed (on paper from the
typecheck
COMMAND;
setpagedevice
OPERAND STACK;
--dicttype--
Which sure looks like a postscript error message saying /ManualFeed is
not allowed in the setpagedevice dictionary (but could be something
else, like not liking 0 / 1 for the boolean, since I only know a smidgen
of postscript).
I think you're right. Please try
<< /ManualFeed true >> setpagedevice
<< /ManualFeed false >> setpagedevice
in the above and see what happens.
Document prints, taking all pages from the bypass tray. It really seems
like this printer has no concept of programmable tray selection. :^(
Elijah
------
such a promsing idea, too
That's annoying.

And, presumably, if you print the above with no paper in the MP tray it
then just grabs straight from the main tray?

One of the features of PostScript's manual feed is that it is supposed
to pause the printer until paper is available in the manual feed slot.
Since the manual feed slot and the MP tray are one and the same thing,
it usually goes straight ahead when paper is present.

If, by some fluke it does pause, then at least we will know that it is
the switch back to the main tray that is failing. Also, if it did pause,
you could feed the cover sheets one at a time which might be (slightly)
less annoying than having to print them separately and insert afterwards.

The only other thing to ask is do you have the latest firmware?
<http://support.brother.com/g/b/producttop.aspx?c=us&lang=en&prod=hll6200dw_us_as>

But that's a bit optimistic.
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-07 06:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by Eli the Bearded
such a promsing idea, too
That's annoying.
And, presumably, if you print the above with no paper in the MP tray it
then just grabs straight from the main tray?
Yes.
Post by Bruce Horrocks
One of the features of PostScript's manual feed is that it is supposed
to pause the printer until paper is available in the manual feed slot.
They do specifically call it "postscript emulation", and I guess that's
why. Since you posted a link to the Brother site, I just took a gander
at the manual (388 pages). It seems like multiple trays are supported on
a select by size basis (but that's not explicitly stated), not a select
by other properties basis. And since I'm using the same size paper for
cover and body, that doesn't help me.

Elijah
------
sent a question to their support
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-07 16:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by Eli the Bearded
such a promsing idea, too
That's annoying.
And, presumably, if you print the above with no paper in the MP tray it
then just grabs straight from the main tray?
Yes.
Post by Bruce Horrocks
One of the features of PostScript's manual feed is that it is supposed
to pause the printer until paper is available in the manual feed slot.
They do specifically call it "postscript emulation", and I guess that's
why. Since you posted a link to the Brother site, I just took a gander
at the manual (388 pages). It seems like multiple trays are supported on
a select by size basis (but that's not explicitly stated), not a select
by other properties basis. And since I'm using the same size paper for
cover and body, that doesn't help me.
Try a test document with a different sized first page - A5 followed by
A4, or some US-ian equivalent if you're in the US.

If it works as desired then you might be able to fake a custom paper
size that just happens to be the same as the one you are using. (Or make
it slightly longer/shorter, if necessary, to trick the printer.)

Fake news!
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Eli the Bearded
2018-08-13 05:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
sent a question to their support
The response from Brother on my attempt to print multisheet documents
with a different cover sheet as a single print job:

Brother only supports using the additional paper tray for
increased capacity as well as differing page size, but not
differing types of paper.

Elijah
------
pretty good printer otherwise
Robert Girault
2018-08-22 17:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Eli the Bearded
The D in the model name indicates "duplexer".
This is good, right? This probably means I can, say, cancel a job while
it's still being sent to the printer?
"Duplexer" is the printer name for the parts that flip a page over to
print on the second side.
Post by Robert Girault
How does HL-L2360DW compare to HL-L2370DW? I suppose it's the same
printer.
I expect it is the same printer hardware but with a slight firmware change.
FWIW, here's my first impression. I bought the HL-L2360DW. (Didn't
find HL-L2370DW where I live.) Easy installation.

But there's a problem. The first print out came out with slanted text
on page 1. Page 3 looks less slanted. Even pages look fine.

Printed the 4-page PDF again once again. Same result, though page 1
looked perhaps a little less slanted. Lines go up as they reach the
right-side of the page.

Printed the first 10-pages of a 81-page PDF. Same thing. Page 1 looks
slanted, going up as the line reaches the right-side of the paper. Page
3 looks slanted and page 5 looks perhaps just a tiny bit slanted.

Printed the first 20-pages of the same 81-page PDF. Page 1 looks
slightly slanted, and the other odd pages look a little less slanted,
but slanted. Even pages don't seem to have a problem.

I bought a Xerox Phaser 3260 about two years ago. It has the same
problem. Odd pages are always slanted. Both Xerox Phaser 3260 and
Brother HL-L2360DW seem to operate in the same way: first side is
printed, then the paper is pulled back as the other side is printed.
The impression I get is that on this pulling back, the paper moves a bit
and the printer loses its orientation there, causing these slanted text
lines.

Is there any document I could print to make it clear that the lines are
slanted? Maybe a document with lines or black squares, that would make
the flaw stand out?

Thanks!
Bruce Horrocks
2018-08-22 22:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Is there any document I could print to make it clear that the lines are
slanted? Maybe a document with lines or black squares, that would make
the flaw stand out?
The printer will have a built-in, self-test print option - RTFM for how
to trigger it.

Alternatively there is <http://printertestpage.org>.
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
(bruce at scorecrow dot com)
Robert Girault
2018-08-23 00:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by Robert Girault
Is there any document I could print to make it clear that the lines are
slanted? Maybe a document with lines or black squares, that would make
the flaw stand out?
The printer will have a built-in, self-test print option - RTFM for
how to trigger it.
Alternatively there is <http://printertestpage.org>.
The tests in this website are single-page. The issue I described
happens only on odd-pages when printing on both sides of the paper.
(But thanks!)
Robert Girault
2018-08-23 01:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Bruce Horrocks
Post by Robert Girault
Is there any document I could print to make it clear that the lines are
slanted? Maybe a document with lines or black squares, that would make
the flaw stand out?
The printer will have a built-in, self-test print option - RTFM for
how to trigger it.
Alternatively there is <http://printertestpage.org>.
The tests in this website are single-page. The issue I described
happens only on odd-pages when printing on both sides of the paper.
(But thanks!)
I managed to make a PDF page with two pages of the test page. It's a
nice way to test it because I can look against light and see both sides
of the page at the same time. That's nice to see if any side is skewed.
Thanks!

Eli the Bearded
2018-08-22 23:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
But there's a problem. The first print out came out with slanted text
on page 1. Page 3 looks less slanted. Even pages look fine.
...
Post by Robert Girault
I bought a Xerox Phaser 3260 about two years ago. It has the same
problem. Odd pages are always slanted. Both Xerox Phaser 3260 and
Brother HL-L2360DW seem to operate in the same way: first side is
printed, then the paper is pulled back as the other side is printed.
The impression I get is that on this pulling back, the paper moves a bit
and the printer loses its orientation there, causing these slanted text
If I'm to understand you, you are printing duplexed output and seeing
consistent issues on first side printed being skewed relative to the
page edges. That doesn't jibe with your description of how the error is
happening, because that should screw up the second side printed.

That printer has an adjustable tray, doesn't it? To handle A4 / US
Letter and some smaller sizes? Do you have it adjusted correctly for the
paper you are using?
Post by Robert Girault
Is there any document I could print to make it clear that the lines are
slanted? Maybe a document with lines or black squares, that would make
the flaw stand out?
It sounds like you want a document with a lot of parallel lines that you
can use to see if the lines are aligned with the paper edges. Look to
one of the graph paper generation websites. I like this one:

https://incompetech.com/graphpaper/

Elijah
------
has not had these alignment issues
Robert Girault
2018-08-23 01:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
But there's a problem. The first print out came out with slanted text
on page 1. Page 3 looks less slanted. Even pages look fine.
...
Post by Robert Girault
I bought a Xerox Phaser 3260 about two years ago. It has the same
problem. Odd pages are always slanted. Both Xerox Phaser 3260 and
Brother HL-L2360DW seem to operate in the same way: first side is
printed, then the paper is pulled back as the other side is printed.
The impression I get is that on this pulling back, the paper moves a bit
and the printer loses its orientation there, causing these slanted text
If I'm to understand you, you are printing duplexed output and seeing
consistent issues on first side printed being skewed relative to the
page edges.
That's right.
Post by Eli the Bearded
That doesn't jibe with your description of how the error is happening,
because that should screw up the second side printed.
It doesn't affect the second side. I'm glad to hear that, but it never
affected the even-sided pages. No tests did.
Post by Eli the Bearded
That printer has an adjustable tray, doesn't it? To handle A4 / US
Letter and some smaller sizes? Do you have it adjusted correctly for the
paper you are using?
It does have. (I'm using A4.) I adjusted it tightly after the first
print out because I thought that was precisely the cause of the problem.

Anyhow, doing the same tests again, they don't seem to present the issue
anymore. (I did not touch the tray a second time.)

Trying to reproduce the problem by ill-adjusting the tray, that does
seem to be the cause. I placed sheets as best ill-aligned as possible
and what happened now is the even-side pages came out skewed by doing
down the page as the text lines move to the right side of the page.

Improved my ill-aligning and all pages are skewed now.

Now I'm trying to well-align the sheets in the tray. I'm back at the
original behavior: odd-sided pages are skewed. (Lines go up as they
reach the right side of the page.)

Trial and error at adjusting the tray and the issue seems to go away.
Trying it align it with the tray adjusters doesn't seem to quite go very
well. I then do a few pushes there and eventually things improve. It's
back at decent printing now. Thank you!
Post by Eli the Bearded
Post by Robert Girault
Is there any document I could print to make it clear that the lines are
slanted? Maybe a document with lines or black squares, that would make
the flaw stand out?
It sounds like you want a document with a lot of parallel lines that you
can use to see if the lines are aligned with the paper edges. Look to
https://incompetech.com/graphpaper/
Wonderful documents. (Nice address.) Thank you!
Rich
2018-08-01 12:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
I appreciate your input on this. Thank you!
I bought a Lexmark MS312dn a couple years back. I've had no issues
with it. It included ethernet connectivity (so it is sitting on my
internal LAN as a 'printer' for all the machines to print to).
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Must
Must be laser black and white.
The "yes/no's" below refer to the MS312dn.

Yes.
Post by Robert Girault
Must print on both sides of the page.
Yes - but will also print single sided if one asks.
Post by Robert Girault
The tray to hold paper should be a drawer,
Yes, drawer on bottom of unit.
Post by Robert Girault
not anything else. I know
some trays are not like that but have a cover to keep dust off of
paper, but I still prefer the drawer.
Must have wireless NIC.
Included ethernet. The model I got happened to be a 'deal' that
included a wireless card to allow wireless printing. I never installed
the wireless card, because it had an ethernet port and for me that was
superior.

So I can say it offers wireless, but I have no experience with using
its wireless offering.
Post by Robert Girault
Should be just printer, not scanners, copy machines.
It is a printer, nothing more.
Post by Robert Girault
(*) Optional
A fast one. I don't mind paying a little more for more speed. But
it's a printer for one person. How much do print? Say 100 pages per
week.
I don't know the speed (never timed it) but it has been fast enough for
my needs. It is in another room, so I can often print a job of a few
pages, and in the 30 seconds walk to the printer, the few pages are
ready and waiting. Google it on the 'net if you want to find an actual
speed.
Post by Robert Girault
Brand. I like quality. Things should work.
Lexmark. Seems of reasonable quality. I've had no issues with it. I
plugged it in, set it up on the LAN, found a .ppd file for it on the
'net somewhere, fed the .ppd file to CUPS, and it just worked. I can
even specify single sided/double sided as part of my print job from
apps or from cups and get the right result in the end.
Post by Robert Girault
I hate to have to reboot something so it might work again.
I have never had to reboot it. It has been rebooted by an occasional
power failure, but I've never had to reboot it manually to get it to do
something.
Post by Robert Girault
I hate paper jams.
I've (so far) never had a paper jam with it.

One other datapoint. It included a built in Postscript interpreter (I
suspect it is really Ghostscript inside) which made it more compatible
for Linux printing (just a .ppd fed to CUPS).
Adrian Caspersz
2018-08-02 06:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
<snip>

Many folks buying new printers are looking in the wrong places.

Printer manufacturers have two general lines of printers.

- Small Office / Home Office
- Office Printers

The first category are sold to SOHO users through shop store locations,
that also sell the consumables. They feature low volume parts, paper
capacity, and low number of prints per toner cart. Can be expensive to
run on original consumables, and the warranty may be limited.

Proper Office business printers are available, at not much greater cost
for the hardware - and be fitted with high capacity non-OEM toner
cartridges for not much cost ongoing. They also have duplex and high
speed as standard, and ship with a decent initial fill of toner. Try a
supplier that sells to businesses.

I've got a Samsung ML-3710ND monochrome network printer, I've had for
over 5 years. Now running on a 10,000 page toner cartridge, that
purchased from Amazon for only £25. It's been very reliable.

The new equivalent for that is
https://www.printerland.co.uk/Samsung-ProXpress-M3320ND-P133417.aspx

Current offer after cashback is less than £100 UK, though ya'll have to
fish around for an idea of the ongoing costs of toner carts. Try Amazon.
--
Adrian C
Huge
2018-08-02 10:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Adrian Caspersz
Post by Robert Girault
Would you be so kind to recommend me a new printer? I know nothing
about them, but I seem to know precisely what I want.
<snip>
Many folks buying new printers are looking in the wrong places.
Printer manufacturers have two general lines of printers.
- Small Office / Home Office
- Office Printers
The first category are sold to SOHO users through shop store locations,
that also sell the consumables. They feature low volume parts, paper
capacity, and low number of prints per toner cart. Can be expensive to
run on original consumables, and the warranty may be limited.
Proper Office business printers are available, at not much greater cost
for the hardware - and be fitted with high capacity non-OEM toner
cartridges for not much cost ongoing. They also have duplex and high
speed as standard, and ship with a decent initial fill of toner. Try a
supplier that sells to businesses.
Or better yet, a dealer (so as to get a warranty) in second-hand bankrupt
stock. That's where I got my printer.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 68th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
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