The chip card transition in the US has been a disaster

[Rich]

http://qz.com/717876/the-chip-card-transition-in-the-us-has-been-a-disaster/

Quoting from the URL above:

Over the last year or so in the US, a lot of the plastic credit cards we
carry around every day have been replaced by new one with chips embedded
in them. The chips are supposed to make your credit and debit cards more
secure - a good thing! - but there's one little secret no one wants to
admit:

The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster. They're
confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.

If you've shopped in a store and used a credit card, you've noticed the
change. Retailers have likely asked you to insert the chip into the card
reader, instead of swiping. But reading the chip seems to take much
longer than just swiping. And on top of that, even though many retailers
now have chip reading machines, some of them ask us just the
opposite?they say not to insert the card, and just swipe. It seems like
there's no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.

...

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Rich
The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster. They're
confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.
The US process was different from those of other countries, where
governments instituted a mandate to upgrade everything by a certain
date.

See, the government has its uses.


Marko

[RS Wood]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
See, the government has its uses.

Agreed! (but only if the government is competent). Government is only there
because people agree to be governed, and the state therefore should always
have to prove it's better than the alternative. Some governments do better
at that than others.

[Roger Blake]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
See, the government has its uses.

Historically the primary use of government has been to engage in murder,
torture, theft, extortion, and slavery on a massive scale.

I see no legitimate reason for a ruthless organization of psychopathic
gangsters ("government") to use violence and coercion to forcibly impose
particular standard for credit cards. This is something for the market
to work out for itself.

[Huge]

Post by Roger Blake

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
See, the government has its uses.

Historically the primary use of government has been to engage in murder,
torture, theft, extortion, and slavery on a massive scale.
I see no legitimate reason for a ruthless organization of psychopathic
gangsters ("government") to use violence and coercion to forcibly impose
particular standard for credit cards. This is something for the market
to work out for itself.

Which is exactly what has happened in the UK.

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Huge

Post by Roger Blake

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
See, the government has its uses.

Historically the primary use of government has been to engage in
murder, torture, theft, extortion, and slavery on a massive scale.
I see no legitimate reason for a ruthless organization of
psychopathic gangsters ("government") to use violence and coercion to
forcibly impose particular standard for credit cards. This is
something for the market to work out for itself.

Which is exactly what has happened in the UK.

OMG, I had no idea. Do try to get out of your country. I bet Belorus
will grant you a political asylum.


Marko

[J Callen]

Post by Rich
http://qz.com/717876/the-chip-card-transition-in-the-us-has-been-a-disaster/
Over the last year or so in the US, a lot of the plastic credit cards we
carry around every day have been replaced by new one with chips embedded
in them. The chips are supposed to make your credit and debit cards more
secure - a good thing! - but there's one little secret no one wants to
The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster. They're
confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.
If you've shopped in a store and used a credit card, you've noticed the
change. Retailers have likely asked you to insert the chip into the card
reader, instead of swiping. But reading the chip seems to take much
longer than just swiping. And on top of that, even though many retailers
now have chip reading machines, some of them ask us just the
opposite?they say not to insert the card, and just swipe. It seems like
there's no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.
...

They are a bit late to the game on this, aren't they? We've had chip &
pin here for 10 years now.

[mm0fmf]

Post by J Callen

Post by Rich
http://qz.com/717876/the-chip-card-transition-in-the-us-has-been-a-disaster/
Over the last year or so in the US, a lot of the plastic credit cards we
carry around every day have been replaced by new one with chips embedded
in them. The chips are supposed to make your credit and debit cards more
secure - a good thing! - but there's one little secret no one wants to
The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster. They're
confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.
If you've shopped in a store and used a credit card, you've noticed the
change. Retailers have likely asked you to insert the chip into the card
reader, instead of swiping. But reading the chip seems to take much
longer than just swiping. And on top of that, even though many retailers
now have chip reading machines, some of them ask us just the
opposite?they say not to insert the card, and just swipe. It seems like
there's no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.
...

They are a bit late to the game on this, aren't they? We've had chip &
pin here for 10 years now.

They don't use Chip & PIN in the US but Chip & Signature, it was in the
article.

[Rich]

Post by J Callen

Post by Rich
http://qz.com/717876/the-chip-card-transition-in-the-us-has-been-a-disaster/
Over the last year or so in the US, a lot of the plastic credit cards we
carry around every day have been replaced by new one with chips embedded
in them. The chips are supposed to make your credit and debit cards more
secure - a good thing! - but there's one little secret no one wants to
The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster. They're
confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.
If you've shopped in a store and used a credit card, you've noticed the
change. Retailers have likely asked you to insert the chip into the card
reader, instead of swiping. But reading the chip seems to take much
longer than just swiping. And on top of that, even though many retailers
now have chip reading machines, some of them ask us just the
opposite?they say not to insert the card, and just swipe. It seems like
there's no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.
...

They are a bit late to the game on this, aren't they? We've had chip &
pin here for 10 years now.

Yes, we in the US are a long way late, and its not even chip-n-pin, its
chip and signature.

[Michael Black]

Post by Rich

Post by J Callen

Post by Rich
http://qz.com/717876/the-chip-card-transition-in-the-us-has-been-a-disaster/
Over the last year or so in the US, a lot of the plastic credit cards we
carry around every day have been replaced by new one with chips embedded
in them. The chips are supposed to make your credit and debit cards more
secure - a good thing! - but there's one little secret no one wants to
The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster. They're
confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.
If you've shopped in a store and used a credit card, you've noticed the
change. Retailers have likely asked you to insert the chip into the card
reader, instead of swiping. But reading the chip seems to take much
longer than just swiping. And on top of that, even though many retailers
now have chip reading machines, some of them ask us just the
opposite?they say not to insert the card, and just swipe. It seems like
there's no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.
...

They are a bit late to the game on this, aren't they? We've had chip &
pin here for 10 years now.

Yes, we in the US are a long way late, and its not even chip-n-pin, its
chip and signature.

Here in Canada, I'm no my second credit card with The Chip. But I don't
really use it, so I don't know how things work at the store. I have a PIN
for it. What surprises me is that online, the only thing they ask for is
a 3 digit number on the back, rather than a PIN. But then credit cards
are treated online like mailorder credit cards, you give them the
information, they verify it before sending the item.

My bank card has a Chip too, I can't remember if I've used it, I use cash.
But online, if I use it, I get sent to the bank site, where I have to log
in and then set up the payment, which seems a tad more secure than the way
the credit cards work online.

Michael

[J Callen]

Post by Michael Black
Here in Canada, I'm no my second credit card with The Chip. But I don't
really use it, so I don't know how things work at the store. I have a PIN
for it. What surprises me is that online, the only thing they ask for is
a 3 digit number on the back, rather than a PIN. But then credit cards
are treated online like mailorder credit cards, you give them the
information, they verify it before sending the item.
My bank card has a Chip too, I can't remember if I've used it, I use cash.
But online, if I use it, I get sent to the bank site, where I have to log
in and then set up the payment, which seems a tad more secure than the way
the credit cards work online.
Michael

From what I remember, the pin is only used to decrypt that data on the
chip. That's what makes it more secure than a magnetic stripe. You can
still pay online or over the phone by using the card numbers.

[Bob Eager]

Post by J Callen

Post by Rich
http://qz.com/717876/the-chip-card-transition-in-the-us-has-been-a-

disaster/

Post by J Callen

Post by Rich
Over the last year or so in the US, a lot of the plastic credit
cards we carry around every day have been replaced by new one with
chips embedded in them. The chips are supposed to make your credit
and debit cards more secure - a good thing! - but there's one little
The US's transition to chip cards has been an utter disaster.
They're confusing to use, painstakingly slow, less secure than the
alternatives,
and aren't even the best solution for consumers.
If you've shopped in a store and used a credit card, you've noticed
the change. Retailers have likely asked you to insert the chip into
the card reader, instead of swiping. But reading the chip seems to
take much longer than just swiping. And on top of that, even though
many retailers now have chip reading machines, some of them ask us
just the opposite?they say not to insert the card, and just swipe.
It seems like there's no rhyme or reason to the whole thing.
...

They are a bit late to the game on this, aren't they? We've had chip &
pin here for 10 years now.

And we've also moved on to contactless.

And we don't seem to have any real problems. Fraud has reduced, it seems
no slower to use the card (faster with contactless).

Someone must be doing something very wrong.

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Bob Eager
Someone must be doing something very wrong.

It's the libertarian mindset in the US. It analyzes the world through
the actions, responsibilities and misdeeds of the individual. It refuses
to apply game theory to see that there are cases where bad things can
happen even though all individuals are trying to do the right thing.
That's why the US is very reluctant to employ top-down communal actions,
decrees, mandatory systemic changes.

It was through such decrees that:

* Europe got GSM.

* Many European countries replaced their national currencies with the
euro.

* European banks unified their account transfer system.

* The European countries standardized 230V as the universal outlet
voltage.

etc.

The individual point of view is important and valid as well, which
Europeans often fail to see. Compared with the Americans, Europeans fail
to take responsibility for their own actions, routinely blame the system
and are incapable of individual initiative.

I wonder if a culture could combine the two points of view.


Marko

[Roger Blake]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
That's why the US is very reluctant to employ top-down communal actions,
decrees, mandatory systemic changes.

So you believe that violence is the best solution.

[Ian McCall]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The individual point of view is important and valid as well, which
Europeans often fail to see. Compared with the Americans, Europeans fail
to take responsibility for their own actions, routinely blame the system
and are incapable of individual initiative.

Bwahahahaha.

"Routinely blame the system" a European-only trait. Bwhahahahah.


Cheers,
Ian

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Bob Eager
Someone must be doing something very wrong.

It's the libertarian mindset in the US. It analyzes the world through
the actions, responsibilities and misdeeds of the individual. It refuses
to apply game theory to see that there are cases where bad things can
happen even though all individuals are trying to do the right thing.
That's why the US is very reluctant to employ top-down communal actions,
decrees, mandatory systemic changes.
* Europe got GSM.
* Many European countries replaced their national currencies with the
euro.

And how's that working out for you? Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy,
anyone?

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* European banks unified their account transfer system.

We've ACH since the 1970's.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* The European countries standardized 230V as the universal outlet
voltage.

And we've standardized on 120, with few things like dryers and stoves
using 240, so what?

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
etc.
The individual point of view is important and valid as well, which
Europeans often fail to see. Compared with the Americans, Europeans fail
to take responsibility for their own actions, routinely blame the system
and are incapable of individual initiative.

Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
I wonder if a culture could combine the two points of view.
Marko

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* Many European countries replaced their national currencies with the
euro.

And how's that working out for you? Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy,
anyone?

It was really nice to visit Cyprus without having to exchange money (and
lose money in the process).

My Italian coworkers also like it that they can use the same currency
back in Italy as in Finland.

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* European banks unified their account transfer system.

We've ACH since the 1970's.

Hm, never heard of that system during the 15 years I lived in
California.

The point is that the EU imposed that on member states. A couple of
years back all Finnish bank account number formats changed to comply
with the new standard, and the bank transfer fee was made independent of
the destination country.

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* The European countries standardized 230V as the universal outlet
voltage.

And we've standardized on 120, with few things like dryers and stoves
using 240, so what?

Some years back most EU countries used 220V while the UK used 240V. The
EU changed it to 230V for everyone.

Again, the point was that in Europe, the governments are more willing
and able to make systemic changes than in the US. The US even has a hard
time getting rid of the penny and the dollar bill.

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The individual point of view is important and valid as well, which
Europeans often fail to see. Compared with the Americans, Europeans
fail to take responsibility for their own actions, routinely blame
the system and are incapable of individual initiative.

Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

That's a slightly different matter (and not altogether true; the French
military has international projects of their own). You are talking about
governments; I'm talking about individual people.


Marko

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* Many European countries replaced their national currencies with the
euro.

And how's that working out for you? Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy,
anyone?

It was really nice to visit Cyprus without having to exchange money (and
lose money in the process).
My Italian coworkers also like it that they can use the same currency
back in Italy as in Finland.

You've ignored the point, their economies are failing, but because
they use the Euro they can't devalue their currencies. I forsee the
EU breaking down as more economies go south and the people get tired
of austerity.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* European banks unified their account transfer system.

We've ACH since the 1970's.

Hm, never heard of that system during the 15 years I lived in
California.

Of course not, it's a system internal to the banks, the only reason I
know about it is I spent about half my career working in banking. It
stands for Automated Clearing House. It allows member banks to
transfer funds amongst themselves and other ACH's.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The point is that the EU imposed that on member states. A couple of
years back all Finnish bank account number formats changed to comply
with the new standard, and the bank transfer fee was made independent of
the destination country.

And how much did that cost? And why bother, banking software is built
to accomodate multiple account number formats.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
* The European countries standardized 230V as the universal outlet
voltage.

And we've standardized on 120, with few things like dryers and stoves
using 240, so what?

Some years back most EU countries used 220V while the UK used 240V. The
EU changed it to 230V for everyone.
Again, the point was that in Europe, the governments are more willing
and able to make systemic changes than in the US. The US even has a hard
time getting rid of the penny and the dollar bill.

Why should we? The dollar coin is inconvenient, whereas the dollar
bill is easy to carry and lightweight. Yes, some politicians would
like to save an inconsequntial amount of money by getting rid of them,
but the populace is unconvinced.

One of the things I notice is that many Europeans don't seem to
appreciate the size and diversity of the US. Things that work in a
small country, especially on densly populated may not work well here
where there are vast, sparsely populated parts of the country.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The individual point of view is important and valid as well, which
Europeans often fail to see. Compared with the Americans, Europeans
fail to take responsibility for their own actions, routinely blame
the system and are incapable of individual initiative.

Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

That's a slightly different matter (and not altogether true; the French
military has international projects of their own). You are talking about
governments; I'm talking about individual people.
Marko

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Jerry Peters
You've ignored the point, their economies are failing, but because
they use the Euro they can't devalue their currencies. I forsee the EU
breaking down as more economies go south and the people get tired of
austerity.

Objectively devaluation, just like stock splits, shouldn't influence
the economy this way or that. The effect is psychological. Workers are
extremely reluctant to bite the bullet and accept pay cuts. Labor union
bosses don't dare to propose that to their members. So you go through a
wave of bankruptcies, or wait for inflation to catch up with the wages.

Finland has stagnated since 2008 and is only now slowly coming out of
recession. Devaluation might have made the recovery easier, but just as
the labor bosses are finally giving in to some token pay cuts in the
form of fewer paid days off, inflation has done most of their work for
them.

The main problem throughout the West, including Finland and the US, is
that human labor can't compete against machines. Industrial jobs
disappeared ages ago, and service jobs are next. More coders would be
needed to finish off the remaining jobs, but most people can't program
computers.

Bottom line: the global economy might be plateauing but you shouldn't
blame the euro for it.

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters
We've ACH since the 1970's.

Hm, never heard of that system during the 15 years I lived in
California.

Of course not, it's a system internal to the banks, the only reason I
know about it is I spent about half my career working in banking. It
stands for Automated Clearing House. It allows member banks to
transfer funds amongst themselves and other ACH's.

Don't know the protocols involved between European banks, but
individuals can and do transfer money between accounts across banks
virtually free of charge.

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The point is that the EU imposed that on member states. A couple of
years back all Finnish bank account number formats changed to comply
with the new standard, and the bank transfer fee was made independent
of the destination country.

And how much did that cost? And why bother, banking software is built
to accomodate multiple account number formats.

The objective was to level the playing field so Finns would have a lower
threshold to switch to non-Finnish banks and vice versa.

Post by Jerry Peters
One of the things I notice is that many Europeans don't seem to
appreciate the size and diversity of the US. Things that work in a
small country, especially on densly populated may not work well here
where there are vast, sparsely populated parts of the country.

Those kinds of arguments don't explain anything.

Many of the most technologically advanced societies are in the sparse
north. For example, Finland has 18 people/km² (between Maine and
Colorado). On the other hand, the US coasts are very densely populated
and could easily support Japan-style solutions.


Marko

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters
You've ignored the point, their economies are failing, but because
they use the Euro they can't devalue their currencies. I forsee the EU
breaking down as more economies go south and the people get tired of
austerity.

Objectively devaluation, just like stock splits, shouldn't influence
the economy this way or that. The effect is psychological. Workers are
extremely reluctant to bite the bullet and accept pay cuts. Labor union
bosses don't dare to propose that to their members. So you go through a
wave of bankruptcies, or wait for inflation to catch up with the wages.
Finland has stagnated since 2008 and is only now slowly coming out of
recession. Devaluation might have made the recovery easier, but just as
the labor bosses are finally giving in to some token pay cuts in the
form of fewer paid days off, inflation has done most of their work for
them.
The main problem throughout the West, including Finland and the US, is
that human labor can't compete against machines. Industrial jobs
disappeared ages ago, and service jobs are next. More coders would be
needed to finish off the remaining jobs, but most people can't program
computers.
Bottom line: the global economy might be plateauing but you shouldn't
blame the euro for it.

I'm not blaming the euro for the global economy, I'm blaming it for
the state of the PIGS economy. They owe more than they can repay, the
solutions are some sort of national bankruptcy or currency
devaluation, ie. repay with money that's worth less. That's what the
US is going to do since we've been printing money since 2008 (and even
earlier) to prop up the economy. And even with that the economy sucks
for the middle class.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters
We've ACH since the 1970's.

Hm, never heard of that system during the 15 years I lived in
California.

Of course not, it's a system internal to the banks, the only reason I
know about it is I spent about half my career working in banking. It
stands for Automated Clearing House. It allows member banks to
transfer funds amongst themselves and other ACH's.

Don't know the protocols involved between European banks, but
individuals can and do transfer money between accounts across banks
virtually free of charge.

ACH transfers are normally free, wire transfers cost money. ACH also
includes such things as automatic bill pay and online bill pay along
with direct payroll deposit.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
The point is that the EU imposed that on member states. A couple of
years back all Finnish bank account number formats changed to comply
with the new standard, and the bank transfer fee was made independent
of the destination country.

And how much did that cost? And why bother, banking software is built
to accomodate multiple account number formats.

The objective was to level the playing field so Finns would have a lower
threshold to switch to non-Finnish banks and vice versa.

Post by Jerry Peters
One of the things I notice is that many Europeans don't seem to
appreciate the size and diversity of the US. Things that work in a
small country, especially on densly populated may not work well here
where there are vast, sparsely populated parts of the country.

Those kinds of arguments don't explain anything.

They explain some of why the US is different. We have a lot of local
cultures. In many cases our ancestors left Europe and other places to
get away from the elite and their ideas of "public good". Europeans
seem to have replaced the unelected, unaccountable hereditary
aristocracy with an unelected, unaccountable eurocracy. We have for
years preferred to do many things at the local level, where we have
more control of the results, and if we don't like the results, we can
organize and get rid of the officials at the next election. I see
this attitude still in GB where they've decided that they've had
enough of Brussels and their grand designs.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Many of the most technologically advanced societies are in the sparse
north. For example, Finland has 18 people/km² (between Maine and
Colorado). On the other hand, the US coasts are very densely populated
and could easily support Japan-style solutions.

Yeah, and the problem is that they think they can propagate those to
the rest of the country, which is nowhere near as densely populated.
One of our local newspaper columnists pushes passenger trains every so
often in his columns; the problem is once you get past the Philadelphia
area, PA is not densely populated, certainly not enough to support
passenger trains. Especially when air travel is relatively cheap.

Post by Marko Rauhamaa
Marko

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Jerry Peters
I'm not blaming the euro for the global economy, I'm blaming it for
the state of the PIGS economy. They owe more than they can repay, the
solutions are some sort of national bankruptcy or currency
devaluation, ie. repay with money that's worth less.

Rich Greeks took easy billions from the Germans and French and hid it in
Switzerland. Bankruptcy would have been good for Greece, but Greece
blackmailed the Euro countries for a better deal. Greece had the Euro
Zone by the balls because whole economy was very brittle and the German
and French banks were too big to fail.

We are not out of the woods yet, but the banks have been bailed out (the
taxpayers have underwritten the Greek loans). Greece could as well
declare bankruptcy now.

Post by Jerry Peters
That's what the US is going to do since we've been printing money
since 2008 (and even earlier) to prop up the economy.

Printing money has been a great success, which the ECB, too, finally
admitted. There's no hyperinflation.

Post by Jerry Peters
And even with that the economy sucks for the middle class.

That's why there is no hyperinflation. If the economy should start
rolling again, the Federal Reserve has plans for reducing the money
supply, although they may have to resort to extraordinary measures (as
in issuing bonds).

The reason the economy sucks is that people have run out of
revolutionary ideas that would take our lives to the next level. The
main thing the economy is doing at the moment is working out ways to get
rid of the human work force.

It would be up to the politicians to figure out how the huge efficiency
gains could translate into economic benefits for those without a job.
Unfortunately they haven't yet woken up to the problem.


Marko

[Scott Alfter]

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters
We've ACH since the 1970's.

Hm, never heard of that system during the 15 years I lived in
California.

Of course not, it's a system internal to the banks, the only reason I
know about it is I spent about half my career working in banking. It
stands for Automated Clearing House. It allows member banks to
transfer funds amongst themselves and other ACH's.

More recently, they've opened it up somewhat to allow people to send money
to each other. They link your account to a phone number or email address so
that you're not handing your account number out to everybody. So far, I've
used it to transfer between my accounts at a bank and a credit
union...usually takes three days, but it's easier than withdrawing from the
bank's ATM, finding a credit-union ATM, and depositing the earlier
withdrawal.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

[Huge]

Post by Scott Alfter

Post by Jerry Peters

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Jerry Peters
We've ACH since the 1970's.

Hm, never heard of that system during the 15 years I lived in
California.

Of course not, it's a system internal to the banks, the only reason I
know about it is I spent about half my career working in banking. It
stands for Automated Clearing House. It allows member banks to
transfer funds amongst themselves and other ACH's.

More recently, they've opened it up somewhat to allow people to send money
to each other. They link your account to a phone number or email address so
that you're not handing your account number out to everybody. So far, I've
used it to transfer between my accounts at a bank and a credit
union...usually takes three days,

Retail banking in the USA is in the Dark Ages.

When I transfer money between accounts (at different banks), the transfer
has usually completed by the time I change and refresh browser tabs. I'm
in the UK.

[Huge]

On 2016-07-31, Jerry Peters <***@example.invalid> wrote:

[41 lines snipped]

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

Fuck you.

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Huge
[41 lines snipped]

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

Fuck you.

Same to you asshole. I'm tired of paying taxes to defend Europe via
NATO.

[Bob Henson]

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

[Paul Sture]

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

Don't forget that when they did turn up, it was with chewing gum and
ladies stockings. :-)

(IIRC courtesy of "Real Mean Don't Eat Quiche")

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Paul Sture
Don't forget that when they did turn up, it was with chewing gum and
ladies stockings. :-)

And after it was all over, they were airlifting crates of food into
Oreyva conspicuously stenciled "GIFT OF USA".

[Paul Sture]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Don't forget that when they did turn up, it was with chewing gum and
ladies stockings. :-)

And after it was all over, they were airlifting crates of food into
Oreyva conspicuously stenciled "GIFT OF USA".

Sorry, where's Oreyva?

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Paul Sture

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Don't forget that when they did turn up, it was with chewing gum and
ladies stockings. :-)

And after it was all over, they were airlifting crates of food into
Oreyva conspicuously stenciled "GIFT OF USA".

Sorry, where's Oreyva?

Sorry, had a thinko about which group I was posting to, did
rot13. [Hits head on wall.]

Berlin. I saw a photo years ago of Berlin air-lift crates so labeled.

"Gift" is German for "poison".

[Paul Sture]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Don't forget that when they did turn up, it was with chewing gum and
ladies stockings. :-)

And after it was all over, they were airlifting crates of food into
Oreyva conspicuously stenciled "GIFT OF USA".

Sorry, where's Oreyva?

Sorry, had a thinko about which group I was posting to, did
rot13. [Hits head on wall.]

LOL. It's been so long since I've seen ROT13 in action that it didn't
occur to me to try it.

Post by Mike Spencer
Berlin. I saw a photo years ago of Berlin air-lift crates so labeled.
"Gift" is German for "poison".

Unfortunate. I live in a German speaking area and before that in Dutch
and French speaking ones. My experience is very much that running stuff
past someone fluent in other languages can save much embarrassment.

Another example was that Rolls Royce had planned on following the Silver
Dawn and Silver Cloud models with one called Silver Mist.

Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave that
model the name Silver Shadow.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rolls-Royce_motor_cars#Rolls-Royce_Limited_vehicles>

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Paul Sture
Another example was that Rolls Royce had planned on following the Silver
Dawn and Silver Cloud models with one called Silver Mist.

Ha. I hadn't heard about that one.

Post by Paul Sture
Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave that
model the name Silver Shadow.

Not to mention the {popu,hi}larity of the Chevy Nova in
Spanish-speaking venues.

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave
that model the name Silver Shadow.

Not to mention the {popu,hi}larity of the Chevy Nova in
Spanish-speaking venues.

The German company Sika <URL: https://www.sika.com/> sells in Finland
using their original brand name <URL: http://fin.sika.com/> even though
"sika" means "pig" in Finnish <URL: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sika>.

Now James Perse <URL: https://www.jamesperse.com/> doesn't have physical
presence in Finland but they do ship there. If you search "perse" with
Google Images, you'll realize that the word means "ass" in Finnish.

On the other hand, some Finnish brand names might not fly so well in
English-speaking countries. For example,

<URL: Loading Image...>

<URL: Loading Image...>


Marko

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Marko Rauhamaa

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave
that model the name Silver Shadow.

Not to mention the {popu,hi}larity of the Chevy Nova in
Spanish-speaking venues.

The German company Sika <URL: https://www.sika.com/> sells in Finland
using their original brand name <URL: http://fin.sika.com/> even though
"sika" means "pig" in Finnish <URL: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sika>.
Now James Perse <URL: https://www.jamesperse.com/> doesn't have physical
presence in Finland but they do ship there. If you search "perse" with
Google Images, you'll realize that the word means "ass" in Finnish.
On the other hand, some Finnish brand names might not fly so well in
English-speaking countries. For example,
<URL: http://www.rantfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/maxresdefault-1.jpg>
<URL: http://i.imgur.com/e36NXo3.jpg>
Marko

Ah, reminds me of chevy trying to sell the NoVa in Spanish speaking
countries.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Post by Jerry Peters
Ah, reminds me of chevy trying to sell the NoVa in Spanish speaking
countries.

Urban myth.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Another example was that Rolls Royce had planned on following the
Silver Dawn and Silver Cloud models with one called Silver Mist.

Ha. I hadn't heard about that one.

Post by Paul Sture
Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave
that model the name Silver Shadow.

Not to mention the {popu,hi}larity of the Chevy Nova in Spanish-speaking
venues.

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

[Johnny B Good]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Another example was that Rolls Royce had planned on following the
Silver Dawn and Silver Cloud models with one called Silver Mist.

Ha. I hadn't heard about that one.

Post by Paul Sture
Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave
that model the name Silver Shadow.

Not to mention the {popu,hi}larity of the Chevy Nova in
Spanish-speaking venues.

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

I did wonder why the Spanish word for "new" would put Spanish speakers
off the purchase of a "new" car. :-)

Now, in my ignorance of the Italian language, I could well believe a
similar tale in regard of a car model named "Caprini" just *might* be
true in translating as 'donkey shit' (or some animal dung related phrase
or word) which proved to be an embarrassing marketing mistake. However, I
suspect this too may be yet another apocryphal tale without substance. :-)

[Paul Sture]

Post by Johnny B Good

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Paul Sture
Another example was that Rolls Royce had planned on following the
Silver Dawn and Silver Cloud models with one called Silver Mist.

Ha. I hadn't heard about that one.

Post by Paul Sture
Mist is German for manure. Once it was pointed out to them, RR gave
that model the name Silver Shadow.

Not to mention the {popu,hi}larity of the Chevy Nova in
Spanish-speaking venues.

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

I did wonder why the Spanish word for "new" would put Spanish speakers
off the purchase of a "new" car. :-)
Now, in my ignorance of the Italian language, I could well believe a
similar tale in regard of a car model named "Caprini" just *might* be
true in translating as 'donkey shit' (or some animal dung related phrase
or word) which proved to be an embarrassing marketing mistake. However, I
suspect this too may be yet another apocryphal tale without substance. :-)

A bit of research points to "goat" for "Caprini", though "caprino" or
"capra" appear to be more correct for this non-Italian speaker:

<http://www.wordreference.com/iten/caprino>
<http://www.wordreference.com/enit/goat>

the latter link has "ignorante come una capra" near the bottom,
literally "as ignorant as a goat", translating to "dumb as an ox"

<http://www.wordreference.com/iten/ignorante%20come%20una%20capra>

Which brings me to French where "the computer is running like a dog"
would be "the computer is running like a goat" - "l'ordinateur marche
comme une chèvre".

I nearly "won" a couple of goats in a pub raffle once upon a time. I
heard my ticket's number get called out just as I was leaving, plus what
the prize was, and wisely decided to continue on my way out of the door.

The landlord had acquired them to keep the grass on his extensive
property in trim, but changed his mind when they escaped and demolished
a neighbour's prize flower bed.

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

Why not, it wasn't our fight. Again, reinforces my point.
Remember "Peace in our time", BTW?

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

What was our obligation to come sooner?

[Bob Henson]

Post by Larry Sheldon

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Jerry Peters
Yeah, it shows as soon as there's some trouble that requires military
action, you Europeans wait for the US to come rescue you.

You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

What was our obligation to come sooner?

The fact that you have to ask is the answer.

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Larry Sheldon

Post by Bob Henson
You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

What was our obligation to come sooner?

The fact that you have to ask is the answer.

I confess, I can not find a single referent pointing to a contractual
obligation to, at our expense, save your ass again.

[Bob Henson]

Post by Larry Sheldon

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Larry Sheldon

Post by Bob Henson
You'll be late, as usual - you'll let us take the worst of it and then
turn up in time to take the glory. In WW2 you wouldn't have turned up at
all until Pearl Harbour happened - you were too busy making a fortune
out of selling arms to us.

What was our obligation to come sooner?

The fact that you have to ask is the answer.

I confess, I can not find a single referent pointing to a contractual
obligation to, at our expense, save your ass again.

I really wouldn't expect you to - but one day America may do something
that does not directly make a huge profit for America. Were we a major
oil producing country run by an absolute monarchy and with a dubious
human rights record, of course, you'd be in like a flash. And we'd be
stupid enough to feel that we ought to turn up and help on day one.
However, you wouldn't understand why we would do that - you would just
expect it.

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Bob Henson

Post by Larry Sheldon
I confess, I can not find a single referent pointing to a contractual
obligation to, at our expense, save your ass again.

I really wouldn't expect you to - but one day America may do something
that does not directly make a huge profit for America. Were we a major
oil producing country run by an absolute monarchy and with a dubious
human rights record, of course, you'd be in like a flash. And we'd be
stupid enough to feel that we ought to turn up and help on day one.
However, you wouldn't understand why we would do that - you would just
expect it.

How very British--equating American lives to pounds or barrels of oil.