Discussion:
'Usenet was a pretty clear warning', say elders
(too old to reply)
RS Wood
2018-07-18 13:25:10 UTC
Permalink
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/17/elders_of_the_internet_apologise_for_social_media_recommend_trump_filters_to_fix_it/


‘Elders of the Internet’ apologise for social media, recommend Trump
filters to fix it ‘USENET was a pretty clear warning’ of things to
come, says new draft IETF standard By Simon Sharwood, APAC Editor 17
Jul 2018 at 06:02 66 Reg comments SHARE ▼

A new Internet Engineering Task Force draft proposes to apologise for
social media.

Issued on Monday July 16th, the draft titled “Social Media (An
Apology)” is signed by “The Elders of the Internet” and opens by noting
“Recently, you may have noticed a dramatic increase in the amount of
opprobrium, outrage, hate speech and overall bile on your favorite
social media channel.”

“The Elders of the Internet apologize unreservedly for this disruption.”

The group say they’ve recently been focussing on security standards and
therefore “were caught unawares when the Internet became the sink for
every poorly-considered argument, paranoid thought when you wake up in
the dead of night, and shrieking nutjob you'd usually cross the street
to avoid.” They blame social media for amplifying arguments, reducing
productivity and even making it hard to breathe.

And then they apologise for their lack of foresight and not having done
something to stop the current state of affairs, as follows:

In retrospect, we should have known; USENET was a pretty clear warning.
We will do better.

Happily, the draft proposes a fix. The Elders suggest that adopting a
meme-only diet could be useful, as memes are “a time-proven way to
express disdain, mocking and other sentiments while maintaining an air
of light humor. They can therefore be helpful in a transition away from
full-throated, deeply-felt outrage.”

“In other words, they’re the methadone of the internet.”

There’s also a call for net-users to adopt blocklists to avoid
“undesirable content, and responsible social networks.”

“Recommending a specific blocklist is out of scope for this document,
but we suggest starting with "Trump" and working outwards from there”
the draft states.

The draft is, of course, all in good fun. “Elders of the Internet” was
a term used by The IT Crowd in the episode that famously packed the
internet into a box (and claimed “The Hawk” – aka Stephen Hawking” as a
member.
--
RS Wood <***@therandymon.com>
Sparc IPX
2018-07-18 13:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS Wood
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/17/elders_of_the_internet_apologise_for_social_media_recommend_trump_filters_to_fix_it/
[snip]
Post by RS Wood
The draft is, of course, all in good fun. ?Elders of the Internet? was
a term used by The IT Crowd in the episode that famously packed the
internet into a box (and claimed ?The Hawk? ? aka Stephen Hawking? as a
member.
I dunno, some days I think the Internet could use a council of Elders.
--
sparcipx
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Huge
2018-07-18 14:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/17/elders_of_the_internet_apologise_for_social_media_recommend_trump_filters_to_fix_it/
[snip]
Post by RS Wood
The draft is, of course, all in good fun. ?Elders of the Internet? was
a term used by The IT Crowd in the episode that famously packed the
internet into a box (and claimed ?The Hawk? ? aka Stephen Hawking? as a
member.
I dunno, some days I think the Internet could use a council of Elders.
It had one, once, but they're mostly retired (or dead) these days.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 53rd day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
~ Stercus accidit ~
RS Wood
2018-07-18 19:23:28 UTC
Permalink
On 18 Jul 2018 14:07:35 GMT
Post by Huge
It had one, once, but they're mostly retired (or dead) these days.
"The ultimate retirement."

So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of asshats.
And we can't have forums where you go by real name because of
tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we can't have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to illiterate shouting matches.

Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.

We still have Elders. They're corporations now, and they tell us which
posts we should read (feed algorithms), what to buy (consumer
tracking), what to think (stupid social media groupthink that social
media has now exacerbated), who to vote for (ibid), etc.

Yay for this new era.
The Real Bev
2018-07-18 20:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS Wood
Post by Huge
It had one, once, but they're mostly retired (or dead) these days.
"The ultimate retirement."
So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of
asshats. And we can't have forums where you go by real name because
of tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore
because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we can't
have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to
illiterate shouting matches.
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
We still have Elders. They're corporations now, and they tell us
which posts we should read (feed algorithms), what to buy (consumer
tracking), what to think (stupid social media groupthink that social
media has now exacerbated), who to vote for (ibid), etc.
Yay for this new era.
I've tried to make Facebook as much like usenet as possible, but it's really
NOT possible. Goddam shame.
--
Cheers, Bev
______________________________________________________
"Parasites plus suckers do not add up to a community."
-- Thomas Sowell
Dan Purgert
2018-07-19 10:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by RS Wood
Post by Huge
It had one, once, but they're mostly retired (or dead) these days.
"The ultimate retirement."
So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of
asshats. And we can't have forums where you go by real name because
of tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore
because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we can't
have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to
illiterate shouting matches.
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
We still have Elders. They're corporations now, and they tell us
which posts we should read (feed algorithms), what to buy (consumer
tracking), what to think (stupid social media groupthink that social
media has now exacerbated), who to vote for (ibid), etc.
Yay for this new era.
I've tried to make Facebook as much like usenet as possible, but it's
really NOT possible. Goddam shame.
Really, the main issue is that the overall average IQ is lower.
--
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281
The Real Bev
2018-07-19 16:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Purgert
Post by The Real Bev
Post by RS Wood
Post by Huge
It had one, once, but they're mostly retired (or dead) these days.
"The ultimate retirement."
So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of
asshats. And we can't have forums where you go by real name because
of tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore
because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we can't
have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to
illiterate shouting matches.
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
We still have Elders. They're corporations now, and they tell us
which posts we should read (feed algorithms), what to buy (consumer
tracking), what to think (stupid social media groupthink that social
media has now exacerbated), who to vote for (ibid), etc.
Yay for this new era.
I've tried to make Facebook as much like usenet as possible, but it's
really NOT possible. Goddam shame.
Really, the main issue is that the overall average IQ is lower.
I think you mean 'NextDoor'.

I've limited it to my usenet and RL friends, with a few friends of
friends added. No ads. Split into interest groups.

Lots of disadvantages. (1) I don't see posts by strangers whose stuff I
might like to read unless they're FOFs; (2) Even with Social Fixer, I
can't make it so that I see ONLY new posts, although others apparently
can; I put it down to using slackware, which is just DIFFERENT; (3) I
can't see ALL posts made by my friends; some don't show up for weeks,
or not at all; (4) The format discourages discussion in favor of
pronouncements; apparently not as bad as twitter, which I don't use,
but bad enough.

FWIW, the Social Fixer extension allows more control -- you can make
parts of the page invisible, you can filter out stuff, and in theory you
can mark everything 'read' so it won't come back, you can change fonts,
other stuff.

People in the groups I read just migrated to Facebook. Some groups
survive, others have died except for the occasional irrelevant spam. We
didn't deserve usenet.
--
Cheers, Bev
"I'm sorry I ever invented the Electoral College."
Al Gore 11/08/00
Sparc IPX
2018-07-19 18:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of asshats.
And we can't have forums where you go by real name because of
tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we can't have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to illiterate shouting matches.
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Post by RS Wood
We still have Elders. They're corporations now, and they tell us which
posts we should read (feed algorithms), what to buy (consumer
tracking), what to think (stupid social media groupthink that social
media has now exacerbated), who to vote for (ibid), etc.
Yay for this new era.
Well, better them than the "kooks" in the newsreaders newsgroups who've
been fighting the same flame war for decades :)
--
sparcipx
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Robert Girault
2018-07-30 02:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of asshats.
And we can't have forums where you go by real name because of
tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore
because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we
can't have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to
illiterate shouting matches.
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Definitely. The Internet would obviously be this way. People didn't so
in the beginning because they were fooled by the obvious fact that only
highly educated people were using it. (I was fooled by that. I loved
the Internet. Now I find it so ugly.)

But it's not over. Like Satoshi Nakamoto once put. We can win the arms
race. Programmers will build intelligent tools that will marginalize
the fools. So somehow there'll be a network where only decent people
are allowed in. Somehow. We'll get the USENET back somehow. But
unfortunately we're not there yet.

Intelligence always wins.

For example, I believe in plain text as the de facto standard. It shall
win.
The Real Bev
2018-07-30 15:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
So, in 2018, we can't have anonymous forums easily because of asshats.
And we can't have forums where you go by real name because of
tracking. We don't have many long form forums like Usenet anymore
because no one can be arsed to type out a coherent post, but we
can't have short form forums like Twitter because they degenerate to
illiterate shouting matches.
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Definitely. The Internet would obviously be this way. People didn't so
in the beginning because they were fooled by the obvious fact that only
highly educated people were using it. (I was fooled by that. I loved
the Internet. Now I find it so ugly.)
But it's not over. Like Satoshi Nakamoto once put. We can win the arms
race. Programmers will build intelligent tools that will marginalize
the fools. So somehow there'll be a network where only decent people
are allowed in. Somehow. We'll get the USENET back somehow. But
unfortunately we're not there yet.
Intelligence always wins.
For example, I believe in plain text as the de facto standard. It shall
win.
It's not hard to killfile the loons, but it takes a while for people to
learn that that's a good thing. I really miss the way it used to be.
Facebook (where so many have gone without looking back; I look back)
isn't even a close substitute, and Twitter isn't even close to FB.
--
Cheers, Bev
"Mr Panetta also revealed that the US Navy Seals made the final
decision to kill bin Laden rather than the president."
--S. Swinford, The Telegraph
[Aside from that minor error, those Seals did a fantastic job!] --Bev
Rich
2018-07-30 16:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Definitely. The Internet would obviously be this way. People didn't so
in the beginning because they were fooled by the obvious fact that only
highly educated people were using it. (I was fooled by that. I loved
the Internet. Now I find it so ugly.)
It's not hard to killfile the loons, but it takes a while for people to
learn that that's a good thing.
Very true, and "back in the day" for a newbie without a pre-built
killfile, the loons sometimes looked to be the majority of the
messages. They likely never were the majority, but one loon's
posting's impact likely felt as great as several non-loon posts, so
they had an out-size impact.

And then there was always the problem of those same newbies replying to
the loon (because they have not learned the user's a loon nor setup a
kill file for the loon yet) resulting in everyone else with a killfile
now seeing the parts of the loon's posting that the newbie quoted (or
the whole thing if the newbie didn't trim). So the loons continued to
leak through even the most hardened kill files because of the learning
time of the value of a killfile for each newbie.

The sad part is that why Usenet will likely remain around for a very
long time, it is also not likely to ever regain it's previous
popularity.
The Real Bev
2018-07-30 17:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Definitely. The Internet would obviously be this way. People didn't so
in the beginning because they were fooled by the obvious fact that only
highly educated people were using it. (I was fooled by that. I loved
the Internet. Now I find it so ugly.)
It's not hard to killfile the loons, but it takes a while for people to
learn that that's a good thing.
Very true, and "back in the day" for a newbie without a pre-built
killfile, the loons sometimes looked to be the majority of the
messages. They likely never were the majority, but one loon's
posting's impact likely felt as great as several non-loon posts, so
they had an out-size impact.
And then there was always the problem of those same newbies replying to
the loon (because they have not learned the user's a loon nor setup a
kill file for the loon yet) resulting in everyone else with a killfile
now seeing the parts of the loon's posting that the newbie quoted (or
the whole thing if the newbie didn't trim). So the loons continued to
leak through even the most hardened kill files because of the learning
time of the value of a killfile for each newbie.
I've watched a single flame war since 1999. I believe that's some sort
of record. I wish I'd stopped participating a lot sooner, but I
believed that there was some hope. Nope.
Post by Rich
The sad part is that why Usenet will likely remain around for a very
long time, it is also not likely to ever regain it's previous
popularity.
The computer groups seem to survive, but the hobby groups are very
different. Same people on Facebook now, but with certain exceptions
it's just not the same -- or even close :-(
--
Cheers, Bev
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already
earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by
mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
-- Albert Einstein
Robert Girault
2018-07-30 17:33:22 UTC
Permalink
The Real Bev <***@gmail.com> writes:

[...]
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rich
The sad part is that why Usenet will likely remain around for a very
long time, it is also not likely to ever regain it's previous
popularity.
The computer groups seem to survive, but the hobby groups are very
different. Same people on Facebook now, but with certain exceptions
it's just not the same -- or even close :-(
That's what I miss too. Only the specialists seem to have survived.
Ant
2018-07-31 01:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Girault
[...]
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rich
The sad part is that why Usenet will likely remain around for a very
long time, it is also not likely to ever regain it's previous
popularity.
The computer groups seem to survive, but the hobby groups are very
different. Same people on Facebook now, but with certain exceptions
it's just not the same -- or even close :-(
That's what I miss too. Only the specialists seem to have survived.
Ditto. [sighs]
--
Quote of the Week: "The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." --Proverbs 30:25 (Bible)
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )
Robert Girault
2018-07-30 17:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Definitely. The Internet would obviously be this way. People didn't so
in the beginning because they were fooled by the obvious fact that only
highly educated people were using it. (I was fooled by that. I loved
the Internet. Now I find it so ugly.)
It's not hard to killfile the loons, but it takes a while for people to
learn that that's a good thing.
Very true, and "back in the day" for a newbie without a pre-built
killfile, the loons sometimes looked to be the majority of the
messages. They likely never were the majority, but one loon's
posting's impact likely felt as great as several non-loon posts, so
they had an out-size impact.
And then there was always the problem of those same newbies replying to
the loon (because they have not learned the user's a loon nor setup a
kill file for the loon yet) resulting in everyone else with a killfile
now seeing the parts of the loon's posting that the newbie quoted (or
the whole thing if the newbie didn't trim). So the loons continued to
leak through even the most hardened kill files because of the learning
time of the value of a killfile for each newbie.
I would eventually killfile the newbie. As a limiting case, I'd
killfile everyone except perhaps for my best friend, with whom I might
be speaking to alone in a large newsgroup. The downside is ignoring
intelligent newcomers. (I'd eventually take a peek to see if there's
any intelligence.) (But I remember a time when I wouldn't see losers
around. That was a time I didn't use any killfiling.)

[...]
Johnny B Good
2018-07-31 01:58:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Robert Girault
Post by Sparc IPX
Post by RS Wood
"The ultimate retirement."
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Agreed. The medium is the medium, it's the people who suck.
Definitely. The Internet would obviously be this way. People didn't
so in the beginning because they were fooled by the obvious fact that
only highly educated people were using it. (I was fooled by that. I
loved the Internet. Now I find it so ugly.)
It's not hard to killfile the loons, but it takes a while for people to
learn that that's a good thing.
Very true, and "back in the day" for a newbie without a pre-built
killfile, the loons sometimes looked to be the majority of the messages.
They likely never were the majority, but one loon's posting's impact
likely felt as great as several non-loon posts, so they had an out-size
impact.
And then there was always the problem of those same newbies replying to
the loon (because they have not learned the user's a loon nor setup a
kill file for the loon yet) resulting in everyone else with a killfile
now seeing the parts of the loon's posting that the newbie quoted (or
the whole thing if the newbie didn't trim). So the loons continued to
leak through even the most hardened kill files because of the learning
time of the value of a killfile for each newbie.
The sad part is that why Usenet will likely remain around for a very
long time, it is also not likely to ever regain it's previous
popularity.
The efficacy of killfiling is, as you point out, somewhat diluted by
naive contributors responding to troll postings, allowing a ghostly
presence of the killfiled to reappear in the form of quoted text.

Whenever a thread originated (or else hijacked) by a troll appears, I
find the simple solution is simply to set the ignore flag. Setting the
news client to ignore such threads, even if the offender hasn't (yet)
been killfiled, is, I find, a quite effective solution to this particular
problem. :-)
--
Johnny B Good
s***@one.billion
2018-07-19 20:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS Wood
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Absolutely; we should work to reduce their numbers and influence on Earth.
Marko Rauhamaa
2018-07-19 20:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@one.billion
Post by RS Wood
Seems to me the common factor here (and the weakest link) is people.
Absolutely; we should work to reduce their numbers and influence on Earth.
People's influence is still a net positive (albeit infinitesimally).


Marko
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