Discussion:
My Dinner With Marc Andreessen
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Ben Collver
2024-07-01 13:18:10 UTC
Permalink
My Dinner With Andreessen
=========================
Billionaires I have known: Part One of a three-part series

by Rick Perlstein
April 24, 2024

Marc Andreessen and Laura Arrillaga-Andreessen arrive at the tenth
Breakthrough Prize Ceremony on April 13, 2024, at the Academy Museum
of Motion Pictures in Los Angeles.

Recently, I read about venture capitalist Marc Andreessen putting his
12,000-square-foot mansion in Atherton, California, which has seven
fireplaces, up for sale for $33.75 million. This was done to spend
more time, one supposes, at the $177 million home he owns in Paradise
Cove, California; or the $34 million one he bought beside it; or the
$44.5 million one in a place called Escondido Beach. Upon reading
this, I realized it was time to stop procrastinating and tell you all
a story I've been meaning to set down for a long time now about the
time I visited that house (the cheap $33.75 million one, I mean).
Strictly on a need-to-know basis. Because you really need to know how
deeply twisted some of these plutocrats who run our society truly are.

<https://www.businessinsider.com/see-inside-investor-marc-andreessens-
33-million-house-for-sale-2024-3>

<https://traded.co/deals/california/single-family-residence/sale/
27724-pacific-coast-highway/>

It was 2017, and a YIMBY activist invited me to talk about my book
Nixonland with his book club, which also happened to be Marc
Andreessen's book club. They offered a free flight and hotel; I
accepted. We met in that house. I was vaguely aware of Andreessen as
the guy who invented the first web browser, a socially useful
accomplishment by any measure and a story I had long kept in the back
of my mind as an outstanding proof text that useful invention often
flourishes best when government subsidizes it, socialism-style--given
that Andreessen had created it while a student at a public
institution, the University of Illinois. Then I boned up on what he
was up to now, courtesy of a gargantuan 13,000-word profile from two
years earlier in The New Yorker.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Navigator>

<https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/18/tomorrows-advance-man>

Andreessen, I learned, was "Tomorrow's Advance Man." He superintended
the "newest and most unusual" venture capital firm on Menlo Park's
Sand Hill Road. He "seethes with beliefs" and is "afire to reorder
life as we know it." His enthusiasms included replacing money with
cryptocurrency; replacing cooked food with a scheme called, yes,
"Soylent," and boosting the now-invisible Oculus virtual reality
headset.

Zero for three when it comes to picking useful inventions to reorder
life as we know it, that is to say, though at no apparent cost to his
power or net worth, now pegged at an estimated $1.7 billion. Along
the way, I also learned he was a major stockholder in Facebook and a
member of the civilian board that helped oversee the Central
Intelligence Agency. Much later, it was in a tweet of his that I
first saw the phrase "woke mind virus." (He's not a fan.)

Last year, a manifesto he published on the website of his VC firm
Andreessen Horowitz got a good deal of attention. It includes lines
like "Technology is the glory of human ambition and achievement, the
spearhead of progress, and the realization of our potential." (The
residents of Nagasaki and Hiroshima might once have wished to
disagree.) "For hundreds of years, we properly glorified this--until
recently." (Really? I only wish I could escape the glorification for
one goddamned day.) "We believe everything good is downstream of
growth." (Everything?) And "there is no material problem--whether
created by nature or by technology--that cannot be solved with more
technology."

<https://a16z.com/the-techno-optimist-manifesto/>

The big idea: "Our enemy is the Precautionary Principle." Normal
people define that as the imperative of seeking to prevent and
contain certain potentially civilization-ending potentialities like
nuclear holocaust and pandemic. Andreessen, conversely, calls
precaution "perhaps the most catastrophic mistake in Western society
in my lifetime ... deeply immoral, and we must jettison it with
extreme prejudice."

What ought be embraced in its stead, naturally, is markets, because
"they divert people who otherwise would raise armies and start
religions into peacefully productive pursuits." (The opening of
markets, as all students know, having everywhere and always been the
most peaceful pursuit known to humanity.)

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Victorian_Holocausts>

<https://asiapacificcurriculum.ca/learning-module/opium-wars-china>

What stands in the way of the recognition of this so self-evident
truth? Ideas like "sustainability," "stakeholder capitalism," "social
responsibility," "tech ethics," "trust and safety," and "risk
management," which must be eliminated--"with extreme prejudice."
According to the logic of the piece, I suppose, this must happen in
order to nip in the bud the armies we can expect the avatars of
ethics and responsibility to raise any day now.

Basically, the manifesto is an argument, dressed up in the raiment of
morality, about power: Andreessen and people like him should get to
make decisions to reorder life as we know it without interference
from anyone else. Which will be quite relevant to know for the saga
ahead, once you see the style of moral judgment this most powerful of
human actors displays behind closed doors.

IT WAS A NICE NORTHERN CALIFORNIA DAY. I saw from the map that a
rideshare trip from San Francisco to Atherton would be a good bit
cheaper if I embarked from a freeway entrance a mile or so from where
I was. I set off on one of those glorious walks that remind you why
you can't help loving cities, in all their unplanned and unplannable
charm. I strolled across one of the remaining shabby parts of San
Francisco, untouched by the gentrifiers, and my stops included a
glorious junk shop stuffed stem to stern with ghosts of San Francisco
past, including a pile of wooden chairs tangled from floor to ceiling
like they came from some ancient Gold Rush; and a street corner where
a clutch of elderly Black men were singing doo-wop.

I arrived at my destination in a good mood, electric with a writer's
observant curiosity. The first detail I noted in Atherton was the
gate where I was dropped off; it informed me that an armed guard was
on duty 24 hours a day. The second was the hulking object standing by
the front door: a sculpture by the French modernist master Jean
Dubuffet (1901–1985), a smaller version of a massive, beloved
downtown public monument Chicagoans call "Snoopy in a Blender."

<https://blockclubchicago.org/2023/07/25/snoopy-in-a-blender-
sculpture-moving-from-thompson-center-to-art-institute>

That certainly made an impression: not the sort of thing one usually
finds on front lawns.

I rang the bell; an Asian man in khakis and a sweater answered. I
snapped into guest mode, introducing myself enthusiastically. He
responded with an odd coldness. Then I realized he was not a fellow
guest but, I guess you'd say, the butler. A hundred years ago, he
might have been referred to as "houseboy" and greeted me in a tux.

I met Andreessen's wife. Laura Arrillaga-Andreessen is the daughter
of a sharp fellow who began scooping up commercial real estate in the
bedraggled lands around Stanford University that became Silicon
Valley, becoming its pre-eminent landowner, which is kind of how
aristocracies start in the dim mists of time. I reflected, perhaps
unfairly, that marrying off their daughters to young men of talent
and fortune is often how such families institutionalize their power.

She showed me around her art collection. I tried not to gawk, and
failed. "That's an Agnes Martin! ... A Claes Oldenburg maquette! He's
one of my favorites!" And so on. I later learned that
Arrillaga-Andreessen made a project of classing up the "cultural
desert" of Silicon Valley--the "pop-up gallery" she organized with a
Manhattan powerhouse art dealer at her father's Tesla dealership was
covered in the art press as something like a philanthropic venture.
But progress was apparently sluggish; Arrillaga-Andreessen seemed
absurdly grateful to finally have a guest who knew who these artists
were. Quietly, I reflected upon how odd it is that people who claim
to love art, and sharing it with the world, would lock masterpieces
away for only themselves and their guests to enjoy. Among
aristocrats, I suppose, it has ever been thus.

<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pace+gallery%22
+tesla+Arrillaga-Andreessen>

There were also lots of books on many subjects, piled up in
skyscraper-like stacks. Andreessen, you see, is an intellectual. That
was why I was there.

Andreessen wasn't, yet. I waited at the dining room table. A chef in
starched whites (was there a toque?) served me something delicious.
Then arrived in the room a "cranium so large, bald, and oblong that
you can't help but think of words like ‘jumbo' and ‘Grade A'" (The
New Yorker's words, not mine); and, one by one, his guests. My first
impression of them came of their response to my small-talk
description of my delightful afternoon. Jaws practically dropped,
like I had dared an unaccompanied, unarmed stroll through Baghdad's
Sadr City in the spring of 2004.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sadr_City>

I had been told, via email, a little about the people I would meet:
mostly fellow investment magnates, but also an extra person added at
the last minute. She was a woman researching life extension,
something that, at the time, the world was just learning was a Valley
plutocrat obsession. A woman, it was subtly emphasized. The times
we're living in: you know.

I can be slow, but I got it. Uber CEO Travis Kalanick was enmeshed in
a scandal over endemic sexism, and it had suddenly seemed imperative
to de-bro-ify the local culture a bit. Thus, this late-breaking
ringer. She was young, very pretty, and seemed to have practically no
spoken English.

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-reckless-rise-and-fall-of-
ubers-ceo-travis-kalanick-sml9p3q2k>

The chef served us a lovely meal. I couldn't help but notice that he
was treated rather like a pizza delivery guy.

I see from a follow-up email that among the things discussed were
David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in
America, on the geographic patterns of American political culture and
their persistence; the anti-Enlightenment philosopher Julius Evola (I
had just begun exploring the explicit anti-liberalism of those close
to Trump, like Steve Bannon); 1970s New Left historiography on
regulatory capture; Corey Robin's The Reactionary Mind; Jimmy
Carter's embrace of austerity; the magnificent volume Strange Rebels:
1979 and the Birth of the 21st Century (I was hard at work then on my
book about the 1976–1980 period); and Jonathan Haidt on personality
type and ideology (someone else must have brought him up; I can't
stand him). I don't remember much of the discussion at all. But
certain telling sociological details will always stick with me. My
close friends have frequently heard me tell the tale.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed>

<https://www.amazon.com/Strange-Rebels-1979-Birth-Century-ebook/
dp/B00H6UMGVI>

ONE PARTICIPANT WAS A BRITISH FORMER JOURNALIST become computer
tycoon who had been awarded a lordship. He proclaimed that the
Chinese middle class doesn't care about democracy or civil liberties.
I was treated as a sentimental naïf for questioning his blanket
confidence.

Another attendee seemed to see politics as a collection of
engineering problems. He kept setting up strange thought experiments,
which I did not understand. I recall thinking it was like talking to
a creature visiting from another solar system that did not have
humans in it. I later conveyed my recollection of this guy to an
acquaintance who once taught history at Stanford. He noted a
similarity to a student of his who insisted that all the age-old
problems historians worried over would soon obviously be solved by
better computers, and thus considered the entire humanistic
enterprise faintly ridiculous.

I also remember I raised an objection to Silicon Valley's fetish for
"disruption" as the highest human value, noting that healthy
societies also recognize the value of preserving core values and
institutions, and feeling gaslit in return when the group came back
heatedly that, no, Silicon Valley didn't fetishize disruption at all.

The subject of Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) came up. They rose up in
thunderous hatred at her for blocking potential "innovation in the
banking sector." (She'll make a similar cameo in Part Two of this
series.) I suffered an epic case of l'esprit d'escalier at that.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27esprit_de_l%27escalier>

I thought it was pretty much universally understood by then that the
fetish for "innovation in the banking sector" was what collapsed the
world economy in 2008. Had I not been stunned into silence, I could
have quoted Paul Volcker that the last useful innovation in banking
was the automatic teller machine, and pointed out that it was only by
strangling "innovation in the banking sector" that (as Elizabeth
Warren always points out) the New Deal ushered in the longest period
of financial stability in American history, and the golden age of
global capitalism to boot. It was only when deregulation broke down
banking's vaunted "3-6-3" rule (take deposits at 3 percent, lend them
at 6 percent, and be on the golf course by 3 o'clock in the
afternoon) that financial collapses returned as a regular feature of
our lives. Silicon Valley, alas, would never learn.

<https://nypost.com/2009/12/13/the-only-thing-useful-banks-have-
invented-in-20-years-is-the-atm/>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley_Bank#Collapse>

Anyhoo.

The evening progressed. The man with or without the toque cleared the
plates. This is when, as I've learned at hyper-elite confabs I've
attended, things tend to get down to brass tacks. Come with me, then,
inside that $33 million manse and hear what this extraordinarily
powerful individual who helped oversee the CIA and one of the most
powerful instruments of communication in human history (Facebook,
whose decisions the previous year had helped make Donald Trump
president) said when the subject turned to rural America. It was like
the first scene in an episode of Black Mirror.

I KNEW FROM THE NEW YORKER THAT ANDREESSEN had grown up in an
impoverished agricultural small town in Wisconsin, and despised it.
But I certainly was not prepared for his vituperation on the subject.
He made it clear that people who chose not to leave such places
deserved whatever impoverishment, cultural and political neglect, and
alienation they suffered.

It's a libertarian commonplace, a version of their pinched vision of
why the market and only the market is the truly legitimate response
to oppressive conditions on the job: If you don't like it, you can
leave. If you don't, what you suffer is your own fault.

I brought up the ordinary comforts of kinship, friendship, craft,
memory, legend, lore, skills passed down across generations, and
other benefits that small towns provide: things that make human
beings human beings. I pointed out that there must be something in
the kind of places he grew up in worth preserving. I dared venture
that it is always worth mourning when a venerable human community
passes from the Earth; that maybe people are more than just figures
finding their proper price on the balance sheet of life ...

And that's when the man in the castle with the seven fireplaces said
it.

"I'm glad there's OxyContin and video games to keep those people
quiet."

I'm taking the liberty of putting it in quotation marks, though I
can't be sure those were his exact words. Marc, if you're reading,
feel free to get in touch and refresh my memory. Maybe he said
"quiescent," or "docile," or maybe "powerless." Something, certainly,
along those lines.

He was joking, sort of; but he was serious--definitely. "Kidding on
the square," jokes like those are called. All that talk about human
potential and morality, and this man afire to reorder life as we know
it jokingly welcomes chemical enslavement of those he grew up with,
for the sin of not being as clever and ambitious as he.

There is something very, very wrong with us, that our society affords
so much power to people like this.

From: <https://prospect.org/power/2024-04-24-my-dinner-with-andreessen/>
Kees Nuyt
2024-07-01 21:28:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 13:18:10 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver
Post by Ben Collver
My Dinner With Andreessen
=========================
Billionaires I have known: Part One of a three-part series
by Rick Perlstein
April 24, 2024
Thank you for bringing this to our attention Ben.
Really disgusting.
So disgusting that "Plutocrat" is a kind description.
--
Kees
D
2024-07-01 21:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Anyone surprised? My theory is that you don't become a billionaire by
being cute and cuddly.
Post by Ben Collver
My Dinner With Andreessen
=========================
Billionaires I have known: Part One of a three-part series
by Rick Perlstein
April 24, 2024
Marc Andreessen and Laura Arrillaga-Andreessen arrive at the tenth
Breakthrough Prize Ceremony on April 13, 2024, at the Academy Museum
of Motion Pictures in Los Angeles.
Recently, I read about venture capitalist Marc Andreessen putting his
12,000-square-foot mansion in Atherton, California, which has seven
fireplaces, up for sale for $33.75 million. This was done to spend
more time, one supposes, at the $177 million home he owns in Paradise
Cove, California; or the $34 million one he bought beside it; or the
$44.5 million one in a place called Escondido Beach. Upon reading
this, I realized it was time to stop procrastinating and tell you all
a story I've been meaning to set down for a long time now about the
time I visited that house (the cheap $33.75 million one, I mean).
Strictly on a need-to-know basis. Because you really need to know how
deeply twisted some of these plutocrats who run our society truly are.
<https://www.businessinsider.com/see-inside-investor-marc-andreessens-
33-million-house-for-sale-2024-3>
<https://traded.co/deals/california/single-family-residence/sale/
27724-pacific-coast-highway/>
It was 2017, and a YIMBY activist invited me to talk about my book
Nixonland with his book club, which also happened to be Marc
Andreessen's book club. They offered a free flight and hotel; I
accepted. We met in that house. I was vaguely aware of Andreessen as
the guy who invented the first web browser, a socially useful
accomplishment by any measure and a story I had long kept in the back
of my mind as an outstanding proof text that useful invention often
flourishes best when government subsidizes it, socialism-style--given
that Andreessen had created it while a student at a public
institution, the University of Illinois. Then I boned up on what he
was up to now, courtesy of a gargantuan 13,000-word profile from two
years earlier in The New Yorker.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Navigator>
<https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/18/tomorrows-advance-man>
Andreessen, I learned, was "Tomorrow's Advance Man." He superintended
the "newest and most unusual" venture capital firm on Menlo Park's
Sand Hill Road. He "seethes with beliefs" and is "afire to reorder
life as we know it." His enthusiasms included replacing money with
cryptocurrency; replacing cooked food with a scheme called, yes,
"Soylent," and boosting the now-invisible Oculus virtual reality
headset.
Zero for three when it comes to picking useful inventions to reorder
life as we know it, that is to say, though at no apparent cost to his
power or net worth, now pegged at an estimated $1.7 billion. Along
the way, I also learned he was a major stockholder in Facebook and a
member of the civilian board that helped oversee the Central
Intelligence Agency. Much later, it was in a tweet of his that I
first saw the phrase "woke mind virus." (He's not a fan.)
Last year, a manifesto he published on the website of his VC firm
Andreessen Horowitz got a good deal of attention. It includes lines
like "Technology is the glory of human ambition and achievement, the
spearhead of progress, and the realization of our potential." (The
residents of Nagasaki and Hiroshima might once have wished to
disagree.) "For hundreds of years, we properly glorified this--until
recently." (Really? I only wish I could escape the glorification for
one goddamned day.) "We believe everything good is downstream of
growth." (Everything?) And "there is no material problem--whether
created by nature or by technology--that cannot be solved with more
technology."
<https://a16z.com/the-techno-optimist-manifesto/>
The big idea: "Our enemy is the Precautionary Principle." Normal
people define that as the imperative of seeking to prevent and
contain certain potentially civilization-ending potentialities like
nuclear holocaust and pandemic. Andreessen, conversely, calls
precaution "perhaps the most catastrophic mistake in Western society
in my lifetime ... deeply immoral, and we must jettison it with
extreme prejudice."
What ought be embraced in its stead, naturally, is markets, because
"they divert people who otherwise would raise armies and start
religions into peacefully productive pursuits." (The opening of
markets, as all students know, having everywhere and always been the
most peaceful pursuit known to humanity.)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Victorian_Holocausts>
<https://asiapacificcurriculum.ca/learning-module/opium-wars-china>
What stands in the way of the recognition of this so self-evident
truth? Ideas like "sustainability," "stakeholder capitalism," "social
responsibility," "tech ethics," "trust and safety," and "risk
management," which must be eliminated--"with extreme prejudice."
According to the logic of the piece, I suppose, this must happen in
order to nip in the bud the armies we can expect the avatars of
ethics and responsibility to raise any day now.
Basically, the manifesto is an argument, dressed up in the raiment of
morality, about power: Andreessen and people like him should get to
make decisions to reorder life as we know it without interference
from anyone else. Which will be quite relevant to know for the saga
ahead, once you see the style of moral judgment this most powerful of
human actors displays behind closed doors.
IT WAS A NICE NORTHERN CALIFORNIA DAY. I saw from the map that a
rideshare trip from San Francisco to Atherton would be a good bit
cheaper if I embarked from a freeway entrance a mile or so from where
I was. I set off on one of those glorious walks that remind you why
you can't help loving cities, in all their unplanned and unplannable
charm. I strolled across one of the remaining shabby parts of San
Francisco, untouched by the gentrifiers, and my stops included a
glorious junk shop stuffed stem to stern with ghosts of San Francisco
past, including a pile of wooden chairs tangled from floor to ceiling
like they came from some ancient Gold Rush; and a street corner where
a clutch of elderly Black men were singing doo-wop.
I arrived at my destination in a good mood, electric with a writer's
observant curiosity. The first detail I noted in Atherton was the
gate where I was dropped off; it informed me that an armed guard was
on duty 24 hours a day. The second was the hulking object standing by
the front door: a sculpture by the French modernist master Jean
Dubuffet (1901–1985), a smaller version of a massive, beloved
downtown public monument Chicagoans call "Snoopy in a Blender."
<https://blockclubchicago.org/2023/07/25/snoopy-in-a-blender-
sculpture-moving-from-thompson-center-to-art-institute>
That certainly made an impression: not the sort of thing one usually
finds on front lawns.
I rang the bell; an Asian man in khakis and a sweater answered. I
snapped into guest mode, introducing myself enthusiastically. He
responded with an odd coldness. Then I realized he was not a fellow
guest but, I guess you'd say, the butler. A hundred years ago, he
might have been referred to as "houseboy" and greeted me in a tux.
I met Andreessen's wife. Laura Arrillaga-Andreessen is the daughter
of a sharp fellow who began scooping up commercial real estate in the
bedraggled lands around Stanford University that became Silicon
Valley, becoming its pre-eminent landowner, which is kind of how
aristocracies start in the dim mists of time. I reflected, perhaps
unfairly, that marrying off their daughters to young men of talent
and fortune is often how such families institutionalize their power.
She showed me around her art collection. I tried not to gawk, and
failed. "That's an Agnes Martin! ... A Claes Oldenburg maquette! He's
one of my favorites!" And so on. I later learned that
Arrillaga-Andreessen made a project of classing up the "cultural
desert" of Silicon Valley--the "pop-up gallery" she organized with a
Manhattan powerhouse art dealer at her father's Tesla dealership was
covered in the art press as something like a philanthropic venture.
But progress was apparently sluggish; Arrillaga-Andreessen seemed
absurdly grateful to finally have a guest who knew who these artists
were. Quietly, I reflected upon how odd it is that people who claim
to love art, and sharing it with the world, would lock masterpieces
away for only themselves and their guests to enjoy. Among
aristocrats, I suppose, it has ever been thus.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pace+gallery%22
+tesla+Arrillaga-Andreessen>
There were also lots of books on many subjects, piled up in
skyscraper-like stacks. Andreessen, you see, is an intellectual. That
was why I was there.
Andreessen wasn't, yet. I waited at the dining room table. A chef in
starched whites (was there a toque?) served me something delicious.
Then arrived in the room a "cranium so large, bald, and oblong that
you can't help but think of words like ‘jumbo' and ‘Grade A'" (The
New Yorker's words, not mine); and, one by one, his guests. My first
impression of them came of their response to my small-talk
description of my delightful afternoon. Jaws practically dropped,
like I had dared an unaccompanied, unarmed stroll through Baghdad's
Sadr City in the spring of 2004.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sadr_City>
mostly fellow investment magnates, but also an extra person added at
the last minute. She was a woman researching life extension,
something that, at the time, the world was just learning was a Valley
plutocrat obsession. A woman, it was subtly emphasized. The times
we're living in: you know.
I can be slow, but I got it. Uber CEO Travis Kalanick was enmeshed in
a scandal over endemic sexism, and it had suddenly seemed imperative
to de-bro-ify the local culture a bit. Thus, this late-breaking
ringer. She was young, very pretty, and seemed to have practically no
spoken English.
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-reckless-rise-and-fall-of-
ubers-ceo-travis-kalanick-sml9p3q2k>
The chef served us a lovely meal. I couldn't help but notice that he
was treated rather like a pizza delivery guy.
I see from a follow-up email that among the things discussed were
David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in
America, on the geographic patterns of American political culture and
their persistence; the anti-Enlightenment philosopher Julius Evola (I
had just begun exploring the explicit anti-liberalism of those close
to Trump, like Steve Bannon); 1970s New Left historiography on
regulatory capture; Corey Robin's The Reactionary Mind; Jimmy
1979 and the Birth of the 21st Century (I was hard at work then on my
book about the 1976–1980 period); and Jonathan Haidt on personality
type and ideology (someone else must have brought him up; I can't
stand him). I don't remember much of the discussion at all. But
certain telling sociological details will always stick with me. My
close friends have frequently heard me tell the tale.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed>
<https://www.amazon.com/Strange-Rebels-1979-Birth-Century-ebook/
dp/B00H6UMGVI>
ONE PARTICIPANT WAS A BRITISH FORMER JOURNALIST become computer
tycoon who had been awarded a lordship. He proclaimed that the
Chinese middle class doesn't care about democracy or civil liberties.
I was treated as a sentimental naïf for questioning his blanket
confidence.
Another attendee seemed to see politics as a collection of
engineering problems. He kept setting up strange thought experiments,
which I did not understand. I recall thinking it was like talking to
a creature visiting from another solar system that did not have
humans in it. I later conveyed my recollection of this guy to an
acquaintance who once taught history at Stanford. He noted a
similarity to a student of his who insisted that all the age-old
problems historians worried over would soon obviously be solved by
better computers, and thus considered the entire humanistic
enterprise faintly ridiculous.
I also remember I raised an objection to Silicon Valley's fetish for
"disruption" as the highest human value, noting that healthy
societies also recognize the value of preserving core values and
institutions, and feeling gaslit in return when the group came back
heatedly that, no, Silicon Valley didn't fetishize disruption at all.
The subject of Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) came up. They rose up in
thunderous hatred at her for blocking potential "innovation in the
banking sector." (She'll make a similar cameo in Part Two of this
series.) I suffered an epic case of l'esprit d'escalier at that.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27esprit_de_l%27escalier>
I thought it was pretty much universally understood by then that the
fetish for "innovation in the banking sector" was what collapsed the
world economy in 2008. Had I not been stunned into silence, I could
have quoted Paul Volcker that the last useful innovation in banking
was the automatic teller machine, and pointed out that it was only by
strangling "innovation in the banking sector" that (as Elizabeth
Warren always points out) the New Deal ushered in the longest period
of financial stability in American history, and the golden age of
global capitalism to boot. It was only when deregulation broke down
banking's vaunted "3-6-3" rule (take deposits at 3 percent, lend them
at 6 percent, and be on the golf course by 3 o'clock in the
afternoon) that financial collapses returned as a regular feature of
our lives. Silicon Valley, alas, would never learn.
<https://nypost.com/2009/12/13/the-only-thing-useful-banks-have-
invented-in-20-years-is-the-atm/>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley_Bank#Collapse>
Anyhoo.
The evening progressed. The man with or without the toque cleared the
plates. This is when, as I've learned at hyper-elite confabs I've
attended, things tend to get down to brass tacks. Come with me, then,
inside that $33 million manse and hear what this extraordinarily
powerful individual who helped oversee the CIA and one of the most
powerful instruments of communication in human history (Facebook,
whose decisions the previous year had helped make Donald Trump
president) said when the subject turned to rural America. It was like
the first scene in an episode of Black Mirror.
I KNEW FROM THE NEW YORKER THAT ANDREESSEN had grown up in an
impoverished agricultural small town in Wisconsin, and despised it.
But I certainly was not prepared for his vituperation on the subject.
He made it clear that people who chose not to leave such places
deserved whatever impoverishment, cultural and political neglect, and
alienation they suffered.
It's a libertarian commonplace, a version of their pinched vision of
why the market and only the market is the truly legitimate response
to oppressive conditions on the job: If you don't like it, you can
leave. If you don't, what you suffer is your own fault.
I brought up the ordinary comforts of kinship, friendship, craft,
memory, legend, lore, skills passed down across generations, and
other benefits that small towns provide: things that make human
beings human beings. I pointed out that there must be something in
the kind of places he grew up in worth preserving. I dared venture
that it is always worth mourning when a venerable human community
passes from the Earth; that maybe people are more than just figures
finding their proper price on the balance sheet of life ...
And that's when the man in the castle with the seven fireplaces said
it.
"I'm glad there's OxyContin and video games to keep those people
quiet."
I'm taking the liberty of putting it in quotation marks, though I
can't be sure those were his exact words. Marc, if you're reading,
feel free to get in touch and refresh my memory. Maybe he said
"quiescent," or "docile," or maybe "powerless." Something, certainly,
along those lines.
He was joking, sort of; but he was serious--definitely. "Kidding on
the square," jokes like those are called. All that talk about human
potential and morality, and this man afire to reorder life as we know
it jokingly welcomes chemical enslavement of those he grew up with,
for the sin of not being as clever and ambitious as he.
There is something very, very wrong with us, that our society affords
so much power to people like this.
From: <https://prospect.org/power/2024-04-24-my-dinner-with-andreessen/>
Ben Collver
2024-07-02 04:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Anyone surprised? My theory is that you don't become a billionaire by
being cute and cuddly.
"... you're a Lebowski, I'm a Lebowski, that's terrific."
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-01 21:53:09 UTC
Permalink
I was vaguely aware of Andreessen as the
guy who invented the first web browser, a socially useful accomplishment
by any measure and a story I had long kept in the back of my mind as an
outstanding proof text that useful invention often flourishes best when
government subsidizes it, socialism-style--given that Andreessen had
created it while a student at a public institution, the University of
Illinois.
And what was this “web” thing that he was “browsing”? That was invented at
CERN, also a government-funded research institution--in fact, an
international one, dominated by countries that the US would consider
“socialist”. They had their own browser, before Andreessen. He had his
chicken but no egg, while CERN had both chicken and egg. That’s why it was
able to spark off the popularity of this world-wide web. Then the
Americans were able to move in and do what they do best, copy other
people’s ideas, only on a larger scale.
Anonymous
2024-07-04 04:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Collver
My Dinner With Andreessen
=========================
Billionaires I have known: Part One of a three-part series
by Rick Perlstein
April 24, 2024
Rick Perlstein needs to STFU, as he's a left-wing kike.

That said, Andreessen needs to become an advocate of Throne, Altar and
Freehold.

Markets are all well and good, but you need something to defend them,
such as a solid religion that fighting men can march under. I propose
old-style Christianity.
D
2024-07-04 10:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Post by Ben Collver
My Dinner With Andreessen
=========================
Billionaires I have known: Part One of a three-part series
by Rick Perlstein
April 24, 2024
Rick Perlstein needs to STFU, as he's a left-wing kike.
I think his left-wing "kikeness" comes through pretty clearly in the
article.
Post by Anonymous
That said, Andreessen needs to become an advocate of Throne, Altar and
Freehold.
Markets are all well and good, but you need something to defend them,
such as a solid religion that fighting men can march under. I propose
old-style Christianity.
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets. For anyone rational,
it is pretty clear that markets are the big blessing of this planet and
the reason we are all living at the quality of life we are. Without them,
we would be back to the middle ages or worse, like in soviet russia.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-04 23:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Andreas Eder
2024-07-05 08:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.

'Andreas
--
ceterum censeo redmondinem esse delendam
D
2024-07-05 09:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.
'Andreas
Nope, actually governments tend to create oligopolies due to being such
big actors on the market that work according to politics and not according
to profit motive. FANG profit handsomely by government protection.

So yes, if you take a quick look your statement might look true, but if
you investigate the revenue streams of the global giants that are (or have
been) in some sense oligopolies, you'll see that they have received plenty
help from the government in terms of eitehr government contracts, or
regulations which protect them.

In my country, technically I could easily start a bank, but governments
protect them, and there you go. You have a few giants and that's it.

I recommend Johan Norbergs The Capitalist Manifesto if you want to learn
the truth about capitalism. A good second source is mises.org.
Scott Dorsey
2024-07-05 12:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.
Nope, actually governments tend to create oligopolies due to being such
big actors on the market that work according to politics and not according
to profit motive. FANG profit handsomely by government protection.
Both of these statements are true and they are in no way contradictory.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
D
2024-07-05 17:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by D
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.
Nope, actually governments tend to create oligopolies due to being such
big actors on the market that work according to politics and not according
to profit motive. FANG profit handsomely by government protection.
Both of these statements are true and they are in no way contradictory.
--scott
Nope, they are contradictory. The act of regulation decreases freedom,
hence increases oligopoly/monopoly. It is of course a spectrum and not
binary, but the more regulation, the more monopoly and the end station is
socialism where the government is the monopoly with all the power, and the
citizens being slaves.

Only less regulation and more free markets can counter that. Johan
Norbergs book, The capitalist manifesto also proves conclusively that less
regulation and more freedom is the only thing that leads to increase
quality of life.

Of course, if by quality of life you mean that all power should belong to
an authoritarian leader and politicians, then that holds little persuasive
powers, but then the potential you and me have such a fundamental
difference in values and ways of looking at the worlds that any further
discussion just becomes pointless.

This is for instance the situation between Lawrence and myself, so every
time he writes about his socialist theories, I just laugh and write some
nonsense back, since I cannot even take him seriously.
Rich
2024-07-05 18:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by D
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.
Nope, actually governments tend to create oligopolies due to being such
big actors on the market that work according to politics and not according
to profit motive. FANG profit handsomely by government protection.
Both of these statements are true and they are in no way contradictory.
--scott
Nope, they are contradictory.
The statements are not contradictory.
Post by D
The act of regulation decreases freedom, hence increases
oligopoly/monopoly. It is of course a spectrum and not binary, but
the more regulation, the more monopoly and the end station is
socialism where the government is the monopoly with all the power,
and the citizens being slaves.
You are correct.
Post by D
Only less regulation and more free markets can counter that. Johan
Norbergs book, The capitalist manifesto also proves conclusively that less
regulation and more freedom is the only thing that leads to increase
quality of life.
Yes, and no. You may be overlooking that in a totally free market, the
competitors are also completely free to purchase each other, reducing
the overall competition. If the specific market has large market
specific capitol costs for entry (i.e., must build a $5Bn or more
semiconductor chip fab in order to enter and compete) then, over time,
consolidation (largest competitor purchasing up smaller competitors)
can happen faster than new entrants such that, in the limit, the result
will also be monopoly.
Scott Dorsey
2024-07-05 23:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Yes, and no. You may be overlooking that in a totally free market, the
competitors are also completely free to purchase each other, reducing
the overall competition. If the specific market has large market
specific capitol costs for entry (i.e., must build a $5Bn or more
semiconductor chip fab in order to enter and compete) then, over time,
consolidation (largest competitor purchasing up smaller competitors)
can happen faster than new entrants such that, in the limit, the result
will also be monopoly.
It goes beyond this. It is in the clear best interest of any business
to have a monopoly or to at least reduce competition. This being the
case, people in an existing business do the most they can to keep the
market from being free.

It is true that one of the things they do is to lobby for regulation
to control the market, and in this regard it's true that the government
is often involved in reducing competition.

But with hands taken completely off the market, dominant businesses
(especially in a market with a lot of initial capital required, such
as telecoms or chip fab as described above) will do to most they can
to squelch competition and the government can also prevent that to increase
competition. There's nothing that -can- stop it short of regulation.

Copyrights and patents can also reduce competition but they can also
increase competition by promoting innovation. Too short a patent
duration and it does little to promote innovation, too long a patent
duration and it suppresses competition. So once again there's a fine
line to be treaded.

It's not as simple as Adam Smith made it out to be anymore.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
D
2024-07-06 10:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Rich
Yes, and no. You may be overlooking that in a totally free market, the
competitors are also completely free to purchase each other, reducing
the overall competition. If the specific market has large market
specific capitol costs for entry (i.e., must build a $5Bn or more
semiconductor chip fab in order to enter and compete) then, over time,
consolidation (largest competitor purchasing up smaller competitors)
can happen faster than new entrants such that, in the limit, the result
will also be monopoly.
It goes beyond this. It is in the clear best interest of any business
to have a monopoly or to at least reduce competition. This being the
case, people in an existing business do the most they can to keep the
market from being free.
It is true that one of the things they do is to lobby for regulation
to control the market, and in this regard it's true that the government
is often involved in reducing competition.
But with hands taken completely off the market, dominant businesses
(especially in a market with a lot of initial capital required, such
as telecoms or chip fab as described above) will do to most they can
to squelch competition and the government can also prevent that to increase
competition. There's nothing that -can- stop it short of regulation.
Copyrights and patents can also reduce competition but they can also
increase competition by promoting innovation. Too short a patent
duration and it does little to promote innovation, too long a patent
duration and it suppresses competition. So once again there's a fine
line to be treaded.
It's not as simple as Adam Smith made it out to be anymore.
--scott
I disagree. I think this article does a pretty good job of showing why
there's no need to be afraid of monopolies:

https://fee.org/articles/how-the-free-market-handles-monopoly/ .

As for patents and copyrights, those are excellent examples of how we have
even bigger and more monopolistic giants today, thanks to the governments
protection, than without it.

Do you think disney would be the woke giant it is without copyright? Or do
you think FAANG companies would be where they are without patents?
D
2024-07-06 10:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by D
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by D
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.
Nope, actually governments tend to create oligopolies due to being such
big actors on the market that work according to politics and not according
to profit motive. FANG profit handsomely by government protection.
Both of these statements are true and they are in no way contradictory.
--scott
:wq
Nope, they are contradictory.
The statements are not contradictory.
They are. One sentence says that free markets become oligopolies (which is
not true) while the other says that government regulated markets (non-free
markets) become oligopolies.

Either free markets create them, or non-free markets. If both create them,
this discussion is meaningless. Needless to say, I do not believe so, but
if someone does believe it, I see no point in continuing talking.
Post by Rich
Post by D
The act of regulation decreases freedom, hence increases
oligopoly/monopoly. It is of course a spectrum and not binary, but
the more regulation, the more monopoly and the end station is
socialism where the government is the monopoly with all the power,
and the citizens being slaves.
You are correct.
Post by D
Only less regulation and more free markets can counter that. Johan
Norbergs book, The capitalist manifesto also proves conclusively that less
regulation and more freedom is the only thing that leads to increase
quality of life.
Yes, and no. You may be overlooking that in a totally free market, the
competitors are also completely free to purchase each other, reducing
the overall competition. If the specific market has large market
specific capitol costs for entry (i.e., must build a $5Bn or more
semiconductor chip fab in order to enter and compete) then, over time,
consolidation (largest competitor purchasing up smaller competitors)
can happen faster than new entrants such that, in the limit, the result
will also be monopoly.
If they raise the price, competitors will form, or alternatives will be
developed. Therefore, even though a monopoly might form, prices will not
go to infinity. And the likelihood that a monopoly will form with global
reach, without government contracts or regulation are close to
non-existent.

For a more in depth explanation have a look at this:

https://fee.org/articles/how-the-free-market-handles-monopoly/ .
Scott Dorsey
2024-07-06 13:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
They are. One sentence says that free markets become oligopolies (which is
not true) while the other says that government regulated markets (non-free
markets) become oligopolies.
But they BOTH can become oligopolies.
Post by D
Either free markets create them, or non-free markets. If both create them,
this discussion is meaningless. Needless to say, I do not believe so, but
if someone does believe it, I see no point in continuing talking.
The natural state of the system is oligopoly. A government can resist this,
or it can accelerate it. This is why a government controlled by an informed
electorate is so important.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
D
2024-07-07 10:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by D
They are. One sentence says that free markets become oligopolies (which is
not true) while the other says that government regulated markets (non-free
markets) become oligopolies.
But they BOTH can become oligopolies.
I give you this, _for a time_ but the free market is a dynamic, changing
system, as technology progresses, new products, services and replacement
parts will arrive and be developed and old monopolies and oligopolies will
fall.

At worst, you'll end up with an equilibrium, where you might have a few
100s or 1000s of companies and where prices are quite static and balanced
by the supply and demand.

The consumer only benefits from this. The classic marxist idea of one
company rising to the top and forcing everyone to live at starvation
levels due to high prices, is impossible.
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by D
Either free markets create them, or non-free markets. If both create them,
this discussion is meaningless. Needless to say, I do not believe so, but
if someone does believe it, I see no point in continuing talking.
The natural state of the system is oligopoly. A government can resist this,
or it can accelerate it. This is why a government controlled by an informed
electorate is so important.
--scott
Except that the logical failure here is that the government is a monopoly.
So since humans act on the free market and in governments, any corruption
or negative effects that supposedly happens on free markets, will happen
within the government as well. That is why so often, governments just keep
on growing. The only way to counter that, is collapse of a government or
severe system shock.

If we reverse the logic, if governments, as monopolies, are benevolent and
kind, so are the same humans acting on behalf of monopoly companies.

As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of companies. One
company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as big
governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.

The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is the
natural state of it, without government creating and helping the behemoths
we have today.
vallor
2024-07-08 02:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of companies.
One company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as big
governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.
The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is the
natural state of it, without government creating and helping the
behemoths we have today.
We should also do away with referees on soccer pitches, because the games
will self organize.

Seriously, I have just 2 comments:

1) The bigotry from "Anonymous" was uncalled for, and
2) "free markets" are not to be desired. _FAIR_ markets, are.

You can't have a fair market without fair referees...and there's the rub.
_Some_ regulation is necessary.

For example: Microsoft was adjudicated to be a monopoly at one point,
the question was if they were using that status unfairly in the market.

How does that look today?
--
-v ASUS TUF Dash F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile
OS: Linux 5.15.0-113-lowlatency Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 15.9G
"It is not only fine feathers that make fine birds."
D
2024-07-08 10:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by vallor
Post by D
As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of companies.
One company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as big
governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.
The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is the
natural state of it, without government creating and helping the
behemoths we have today.
We should also do away with referees on soccer pitches, because the games
will self organize.
You have never played football without a judge? I've played plento of
self-organized football games. Some games self-organize with a judge some
without.
Post by vallor
1) The bigotry from "Anonymous" was uncalled for, and
2) "free markets" are not to be desired. _FAIR_ markets, are.
See the article I sent, that shows why 1 and 2 are wrong.
Post by vallor
You can't have a fair market without fair referees...and there's the rub.
_Some_ regulation is necessary.
Incorrect. I've made 100s of thousands if not more without judges and
referees. Let me guess... you are not running your own company, right?
Post by vallor
For example: Microsoft was adjudicated to be a monopoly at one point,
the question was if they were using that status unfairly in the market.
How does that look today?
Microsoft reached its position due to deep links with and favours from the
government. Without the government, Microsoft would be a shadow of itself.
Just have a look at its income and then you subtract all the government
contracts, that's only the first indication.
vallor
2024-07-08 21:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by vallor
Post by D
As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of companies.
One company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as big
governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.
The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is the
natural state of it, without government creating and helping the
behemoths we have today.
We should also do away with referees on soccer pitches, because the games
will self organize.
You have never played football without a judge? I've played plento of
self-organized football games. Some games self-organize with a judge some
without.
Post by vallor
1) The bigotry from "Anonymous" was uncalled for, and
2) "free markets" are not to be desired. _FAIR_ markets, are.
See the article I sent, that shows why 1 and 2 are wrong.
So you condone the bigotry. Ad hominem fallacy #1.
Post by D
Post by vallor
You can't have a fair market without fair referees...and there's the rub.
_Some_ regulation is necessary.
Incorrect. I've made 100s of thousands if not more without judges and
referees. Let me guess... you are not running your own company, right?
So you refer to my personal circumstances as if it had any bearing on
my arguments. Ad hominem fallacy #2.

Now, it's true that my business partner and I started a company in 1994
that is still going strong after 30 years, one with over 750 employees
last time I checked. And it's true that I speak from experience,
because we are an ISP fighting two "elephants" in the market that
continue their regulatory capture -- where we have fought for a
fairer market.

But again, referring to my personal circumstances only means you
have a loose grasp of logic, and are prone to logical fallacies.

I'll let you try again to make an argument without your disgusting
bigotry or logical fallacies -- if you dare.

And I'm not even going to approach a discussion of natural monopolies
with respect to last-mile Internet or operating system
standards -- at least, not with you, until you recognize
your logical lapses.
--
-v ASUS TUF Dash F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile
OS: Linux 5.15.0-113-lowlatency Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 15.9G
D
2024-07-09 10:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by vallor
Post by D
Post by vallor
Post by D
As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of companies.
One company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as big
governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.
The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is the
natural state of it, without government creating and helping the
behemoths we have today.
We should also do away with referees on soccer pitches, because the
games
Post by D
Post by vallor
will self organize.
You have never played football without a judge? I've played plento of
self-organized football games. Some games self-organize with a judge
some
Post by D
without.
Post by vallor
1) The bigotry from "Anonymous" was uncalled for, and
2) "free markets" are not to be desired. _FAIR_ markets, are.
See the article I sent, that shows why 1 and 2 are wrong.
So you condone the bigotry. Ad hominem fallacy #1.
Post by D
Post by vallor
You can't have a fair market without fair referees...and there's the
rub.
Post by D
Post by vallor
_Some_ regulation is necessary.
Incorrect. I've made 100s of thousands if not more without judges and
referees. Let me guess... you are not running your own company, right?
So you refer to my personal circumstances as if it had any bearing on
my arguments. Ad hominem fallacy #2.
Now, it's true that my business partner and I started a company in 1994
that is still going strong after 30 years, one with over 750 employees
last time I checked. And it's true that I speak from experience,
because we are an ISP fighting two "elephants" in the market that
continue their regulatory capture -- where we have fought for a
fairer market.
But again, referring to my personal circumstances only means you
have a loose grasp of logic, and are prone to logical fallacies.
I'll let you try again to make an argument without your disgusting
bigotry or logical fallacies -- if you dare.
And I'm not even going to approach a discussion of natural monopolies
with respect to last-mile Internet or operating system
standards -- at least, not with you, until you recognize
your logical lapses.
Sorry, you are incorrect. Not much we can do here.
vallor
2024-07-09 12:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by vallor
Post by D
Post by vallor
Post by D
As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of
companies.
One company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as
big governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.
The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is
the natural state of it, without government creating and helping the
behemoths we have today.
We should also do away with referees on soccer pitches, because the
games
Post by D
Post by vallor
will self organize.
You have never played football without a judge? I've played plento of
self-organized football games. Some games self-organize with a judge
some
Post by D
without.
Post by vallor
1) The bigotry from "Anonymous" was uncalled for, and 2) "free
markets" are not to be desired. _FAIR_ markets, are.
See the article I sent, that shows why 1 and 2 are wrong.
So you condone the bigotry. Ad hominem fallacy #1.
Post by D
Post by vallor
You can't have a fair market without fair referees...and there's the
rub.
Post by D
Post by vallor
_Some_ regulation is necessary.
Incorrect. I've made 100s of thousands if not more without judges and
referees. Let me guess... you are not running your own company, right?
So you refer to my personal circumstances as if it had any bearing on
my arguments. Ad hominem fallacy #2.
Now, it's true that my business partner and I started a company in 1994
that is still going strong after 30 years, one with over 750 employees
last time I checked. And it's true that I speak from experience,
because we are an ISP fighting two "elephants" in the market that
continue their regulatory capture -- where we have fought for a fairer
market.
But again, referring to my personal circumstances only means you have a
loose grasp of logic, and are prone to logical fallacies.
I'll let you try again to make an argument without your disgusting
bigotry or logical fallacies -- if you dare.
And I'm not even going to approach a discussion of natural monopolies
with respect to last-mile Internet or operating system standards -- at
least, not with you, until you recognize your logical lapses.
Sorry, you are incorrect.
That is not an argument.
Post by D
Not much we can do here.
This much is true. You run into an actual 1%-er -- one who
thinks you're full of crap -- and you run for the hills.

You were wrong on rasw, and you're wrong here, too.

But for someone who likes to say "we have nothing to talk about"
so much, you sure do like to shoot your mouth off, Bigot.

p.s. The article in the OP was excellent, and relatable by
anyone with a conscience.
--
-v ASUS TUF Dash F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile
OS: Linux 5.15.0-113-lowlatency Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 15.9G
"Ok, I pulled the pin. Now what? Where are you going?"
D
2024-07-10 10:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by vallor
Post by D
Post by vallor
Post by D
Post by vallor
Post by D
As for the natural state of the system in a free market, it is not
oligopoly. It is a diverse set of millions and millions of companies.
One company governing all of earth would collapse the same way as
big governments (and I'm thinking world government) collapses due to
inefficient organization.
The free market is self organizing and decentralised, and that is
the natural state of it, without government creating and helping the
behemoths we have today.
We should also do away with referees on soccer pitches, because the
games
Post by D
Post by vallor
will self organize.
You have never played football without a judge? I've played plento of
self-organized football games. Some games self-organize with a judge
some
Post by D
without.
Post by vallor
1) The bigotry from "Anonymous" was uncalled for, and 2) "free
markets" are not to be desired. _FAIR_ markets, are.
See the article I sent, that shows why 1 and 2 are wrong.
So you condone the bigotry. Ad hominem fallacy #1.
Post by D
Post by vallor
You can't have a fair market without fair referees...and there's the
rub.
Post by D
Post by vallor
_Some_ regulation is necessary.
Incorrect. I've made 100s of thousands if not more without judges and
referees. Let me guess... you are not running your own company, right?
So you refer to my personal circumstances as if it had any bearing on
my arguments. Ad hominem fallacy #2.
Now, it's true that my business partner and I started a company in 1994
that is still going strong after 30 years, one with over 750 employees
last time I checked. And it's true that I speak from experience,
because we are an ISP fighting two "elephants" in the market that
continue their regulatory capture -- where we have fought for a fairer
market.
But again, referring to my personal circumstances only means you have a
loose grasp of logic, and are prone to logical fallacies.
I'll let you try again to make an argument without your disgusting
bigotry or logical fallacies -- if you dare.
And I'm not even going to approach a discussion of natural monopolies
with respect to last-mile Internet or operating system standards -- at
least, not with you, until you recognize your logical lapses.
Sorry, you are incorrect.
That is not an argument.
Post by D
Not much we can do here.
This much is true. You run into an actual 1%-er -- one who
thinks you're full of crap -- and you run for the hills.
So? I know 1%-er who agree with me.
Post by vallor
You were wrong on rasw, and you're wrong here, too.
No.
Post by vallor
But for someone who likes to say "we have nothing to talk about"
so much, you sure do like to shoot your mouth off, Bigot.
p.s. The article in the OP was excellent, and relatable by
anyone with a conscience.
The fee article was excellent.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 04:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
If they raise the price, competitors will form, or alternatives will be
developed.
There are ways to stifle competition, if there are no laws to prevent it.
Deceptive advertising, predatory pricing, cornering the market on
important components, buying out competitors ... the history of capitalism
is littered with examples of all of these.

Remember the phrase: “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts
absolutely”. An economic monopoly is something pretty close to “absolute
power”.
D
2024-07-07 10:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
If they raise the price, competitors will form, or alternatives will be
developed.
There are ways to stifle competition, if there are no laws to prevent it.
Deceptive advertising, predatory pricing, cornering the market on
important components, buying out competitors ... the history of capitalism
is littered with examples of all of these.
Remember the phrase: “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts
absolutely”. An economic monopoly is something pretty close to “absolute
power”.
Incorrect. Markets have customers and are based on free informed consent.
What you describe is a government based, ultimately on a monopoly on
violence.

Congratulations Lawrence, you just explained why governments are the
threat and not free markets! =D
Andreas Eder
2024-07-06 10:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by D
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by D
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
That is not gard to priive under some mild conditions.
Go read about it, if zou can understand the math behind that.
Nope, actually governments tend to create oligopolies due to being such
big actors on the market that work according to politics and not according
to profit motive. FANG profit handsomely by government protection.
Both of these statements are true and they are in no way contradictory.
--scott
Nope, they are contradictory.
The statements are not contradictory.
Post by D
The act of regulation decreases freedom, hence increases
oligopoly/monopoly. It is of course a spectrum and not binary, but
the more regulation, the more monopoly and the end station is
socialism where the government is the monopoly with all the power,
and the citizens being slaves.
You are correct.
Post by D
Only less regulation and more free markets can counter that. Johan
Norbergs book, The capitalist manifesto also proves conclusively that less
regulation and more freedom is the only thing that leads to increase
quality of life.
Yes, and no. You may be overlooking that in a totally free market, the
competitors are also completely free to purchase each other, reducing
the overall competition. If the specific market has large market
specific capitol costs for entry (i.e., must build a $5Bn or more
semiconductor chip fab in order to enter and compete) then, over time,
consolidation (largest competitor purchasing up smaller competitors)
can happen faster than new entrants such that, in the limit, the result
will also be monopoly.
That is exactly what will happen to an unregulated free market.
The only participants remaining after some time are the ones so big -
and almost equally big - that they are unable to purchase each other.

'Andreas
--
ceterum censeo redmondinem esse delendam
Eric Pozharski
2024-07-06 13:40:17 UTC
Permalink
*SKIP* [ 37 lines 6 levels deep]
Post by D
This is for instance the situation between Lawrence and myself, so
every time he writes about his socialist theories, I just laugh and
write some nonsense back, since I cannot even take him seriously.
Do you realize that you both are not distinguishable from chatgpt?
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
D
2024-07-07 10:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Pozharski
*SKIP* [ 37 lines 6 levels deep]
Post by D
This is for instance the situation between Lawrence and myself, so
every time he writes about his socialist theories, I just laugh and
write some nonsense back, since I cannot even take him seriously.
Do you realize that you both are not distinguishable from chatgpt?
I did not realize that. Thank you very much Eric for pointing that out. ;)
Eric Pozharski
2024-07-08 12:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Eric Pozharski
Post by D
This is for instance the situation between Lawrence and myself, so
every time he writes about his socialist theories, I just laugh and
write some nonsense back, since I cannot even take him seriously.
Do you realize that you both are not distinguishable from chatgpt?
I did not realize that. Thank you very much Eric for pointing that out. ;)
Unability to withhold comments. This is so chatgpt thing to do.
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
D
2024-07-08 20:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Pozharski
Post by D
Post by Eric Pozharski
Post by D
This is for instance the situation between Lawrence and myself, so
every time he writes about his socialist theories, I just laugh and
write some nonsense back, since I cannot even take him seriously.
Do you realize that you both are not distinguishable from chatgpt?
I did not realize that. Thank you very much Eric for pointing that out. ;)
Unability to withhold comments. This is so chatgpt thing to do.
Yes.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-06 01:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Eder
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
Case in point: the introduction of mobile phones. The Europeans decided
that there had to be a common standard, rather than having every carrier
build its own proprietary network. So they came up with a Government-
mandated spec called “GSM”. Yes, it was a complex. bureaucratic spec, but
it was a proper spec, with compliance tests and everything. So you had
proper interoperability. The only thing that tied you to a particular
carrier was that you got your SIM card from them. So switching carriers
was as easy as getting a new SIM card.

Meanwhile, in the USA, the prevailing ideology was “let the market
decide”. So each carrier created its own proprietary network, and its
customers were locked into that network.

And so you had the interesting situation where, in Europe, you could buy
your phone first, then decide which carrier to sign up to, whereas in the
USA, you first chose your carrier, and then you had to buy your phone from
them.

And not only was the European system successful in Europe, it became
popular in most of the rest of the world, too. So you had the situation,
in the early days of Android, where a new model from Samsung or HTC or
whomever would be available across the entire GSM-using world within a
matter of days, while customers in the US had to wait another couple of
weeks, for carrier-specific versions to come out for their particular
carriers.
Computer Nerd Kev
2024-07-06 03:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Andreas Eder
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
Case in point: the introduction of mobile phones. The Europeans decided
that there had to be a common standard, rather than having every carrier
build its own proprietary network. So they came up with a Government-
mandated spec called "GSM". Yes, it was a complex. bureaucratic spec, but
it was a proper spec, with compliance tests and everything. So you had
proper interoperability. The only thing that tied you to a particular
carrier was that you got your SIM card from them. So switching carriers
was as easy as getting a new SIM card.
Ahh, except that the spec included SIM Locking, with which all that
compatiblity can be made irrelevent for a user with a network-locked
phone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock

Worse Telstra in Australia silently clamped down the network
locking so my new Telstra-locked 4G phone won't work with a
Telstra-reseller's SIM (same network, resold by another
company), even though my old 3G Telstra-locked phone does. So I
wasted my money on that (they'll unlock it, but for more than I
paid for the phone).

By the way, an example of BS on Wikipedia:
"In Australia, carriers can choose whether to SIM/Network Lock
handsets or not, however in practice, is rarely performed except in
limited cases. Almost all handsets available on the Australian
market have no such restriction."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock#Australia

Stores here are _full_ of locked phones and have been for decades.

This checks out for the UK though:
"The UK's mobile networks are to be forbidden from selling phones
locked to their services from December 2021."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock#United_Kingdom

Mobile networks banned from selling locked phones
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54692179

So yes governments can mandate universal SIM compatibility, though
it looks like it's not something broadly applicable in Europe, and
it's not just thanks to GSM. GSM clearly served the purposes of the
network operators more than those of users, by allowing them to use
common hardware while still restricting its usage to one company's
network. There's also still different frequency bands which aren't
all supported by phones.

Here in Aus I got an unlocked Nokia instead, and I now know I can't
buy new Telstra-locked mobile devices expecting them to work with
my SIMs anymore. So that's market forces at work. I'm one new
customer in the unlocked phone market, although a pretty grumpy
one who'd have been better off in the UK. I'll get around to
selling the locked phone on Ebay eventually.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-06 07:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Ahh, except that the spec included SIM Locking, with which all that
compatiblity can be made irrelevent for a user with a network-locked
All the jurisdictions I’m aware of had consumer-protection regulators who
saw to it that unlocking a locked phone was available at a reasonable
charge. Basically, customers got a discount off buying a SIM-locked phone
(compared to an unlocked one), and they had to repay some part of that
discount when it was unlocked, depending on how long before this was done.

Compare this to the US system, where there was no option to unlock the
SIM, because there was no SIM.
Computer Nerd Kev
2024-07-06 23:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Ahh, except that the spec included SIM Locking, with which all that
compatiblity can be made irrelevent for a user with a network-locked
All the jurisdictions I'm aware of had consumer-protection regulators who
saw to it that unlocking a locked phone was available at a reasonable
charge. Basically, customers got a discount off buying a SIM-locked phone
(compared to an unlocked one), and they had to repay some part of that
discount when it was unlocked, depending on how long before this was done.
Compare this to the US system, where there was no option to unlock the
SIM, because there was no SIM.
As I also mentioned there's still the problem with different
phone networks using different frequency bands, and phones only
supporting the bands of one network. That was a common issue with
3G phone networks in Australia, though the bands used for 4G are
more consistent between networks and therefore all of the used 4G
bands are supported by most/all of the locally-sold phones.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
D
2024-07-06 10:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Andreas Eder
Free markets ten ro become oligopols, if not regulated.
Case in point: the introduction of mobile phones. The Europeans decided
that there had to be a common standard, rather than having every carrier
build its own proprietary network. So they came up with a Government-
mandated spec called “GSM”. Yes, it was a complex. bureaucratic spec, but
it was a proper spec, with compliance tests and everything. So you had
proper interoperability. The only thing that tied you to a particular
carrier was that you got your SIM card from them. So switching carriers
was as easy as getting a new SIM card.
Meanwhile, in the USA, the prevailing ideology was “let the market
decide”. So each carrier created its own proprietary network, and its
customers were locked into that network.
And so you had the interesting situation where, in Europe, you could buy
your phone first, then decide which carrier to sign up to, whereas in the
USA, you first chose your carrier, and then you had to buy your phone from
them.
And not only was the European system successful in Europe, it became
popular in most of the rest of the world, too. So you had the situation,
in the early days of Android, where a new model from Samsung or HTC or
whomever would be available across the entire GSM-using world within a
matter of days, while customers in the US had to wait another couple of
weeks, for carrier-specific versions to come out for their particular
carriers.
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can be
used as an example.

In terms of european failure we can just compare european GDP (PPP) per
capita according to IMF (58,838 USD) with the US (85,373 USD) to see that
a more free society is a richer and more ethical society.
Dave Yeo
2024-07-06 15:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
In terms of european failure we can just compare european GDP (PPP) per
capita according to IMF (58,838 USD) with the US (85,373 USD) to see
that a more free society is a richer and more ethical society.
Are you actually claiming that higher GDP equals more ethical? So Qatar
and the United Arab Emirates, as well as various European nations are
more ethical then America as well as China's increasing GDP is based on
becoming more ethical.
Dave
D
2024-07-07 10:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
In terms of european failure we can just compare european GDP (PPP) per
capita according to IMF (58,838 USD) with the US (85,373 USD) to see
that a more free society is a richer and more ethical society.
Are you actually claiming that higher GDP equals more ethical? So Qatar and
the United Arab Emirates, as well as various European nations are more
ethical then America as well as China's increasing GDP is based on becoming
more ethical.
Dave
Yes, because they steal less from me in terms of taxes. Tax is theft. In
terms of violence, war, theft etc. governments are all bad. The difference
is the type of criminal activity, and if it is successfully hidden. So
yes, from a tax point of view, that is my opinion.

One thing to note though, is that I say more ethical, and not _ethical. No
government is ethical. And all governments can become more and more
ethical as they strive to abolish themselves. So no, arabia is not
"ethical" but since they engage in less theft than for instance, sweden,
then yes, they are more ethical than sweden.
Dave Yeo
2024-07-07 16:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by D
In terms of european failure we can just compare european GDP (PPP) per
capita according to IMF (58,838 USD) with the US (85,373 USD) to see
that a more free society is a richer and more ethical society.
Are you actually claiming that higher GDP equals more ethical? So
Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, as well as various European
nations are more ethical then America as well as China's increasing
GDP is based on becoming more ethical.
Dave
Yes, because they steal less from me in terms of taxes. Tax is theft. In
terms of violence, war, theft etc. governments are all bad. The
difference is the type of criminal activity, and if it is successfully
hidden. So yes, from a tax point of view, that is my opinion.
One thing to note though, is that I say more ethical, and not _ethical.
No government is ethical. And all governments can become more and more
ethical as they strive to abolish themselves. So no, arabia is not
"ethical" but since they engage in less theft than for instance, sweden,
then yes, they are more ethical than sweden.
Why do you pay taxes if you consider it unethical? There's country's you
could move to with little government and no taxes such as Haiti, or
simply stop paying taxes by not taking the fruits of those taxes.
Dave
D
2024-07-07 19:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by D
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by D
In terms of european failure we can just compare european GDP (PPP) per
capita according to IMF (58,838 USD) with the US (85,373 USD) to see
that a more free society is a richer and more ethical society.
Are you actually claiming that higher GDP equals more ethical? So
Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, as well as various European
nations are more ethical then America as well as China's increasing
GDP is based on becoming more ethical.
Dave
Yes, because they steal less from me in terms of taxes. Tax is theft. In
terms of violence, war, theft etc. governments are all bad. The
difference is the type of criminal activity, and if it is successfully
hidden. So yes, from a tax point of view, that is my opinion.
One thing to note though, is that I say more ethical, and not _ethical.
No government is ethical. And all governments can become more and more
ethical as they strive to abolish themselves. So no, arabia is not
"ethical" but since they engage in less theft than for instance, sweden,
then yes, they are more ethical than sweden.
Why do you pay taxes if you consider it unethical? There's country's you
could move to with little government and no taxes such as Haiti, or simply
stop paying taxes by not taking the fruits of those taxes.
Dave
Sadly I have family commitment which are leveraged against me. If I could
just stop paying taxes without jeopardising those family commitments and
without risking violence I definitely would.

So what do I do instead?

I fight with lawyers and aggressive tax planning. I'm down to about 9% to
14% in taxes, which is much better than the 60+% or so I used to pay, but
the journey towards 0% continues! =) Once my family commitments are not
holding me back, I think, as you say, that it should be quite possible to
shave off some additional couple of % from that figure! =)
Eric Pozharski
2024-07-08 12:04:28 UTC
Permalink
*SKIP* [ 17 lines 5 levels deep]
Post by D
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by D
One thing to note though, is that I say more ethical, and not
_ethical. No government is ethical. And all governments can become
more and more ethical as they strive to abolish themselves. So no,
arabia is not "ethical" but since they engage in less theft than for
instance, sweden, then yes, they are more ethical than sweden.
Why do you pay taxes if you consider it unethical? There's country's
you could move to with little government and no taxes such as Haiti,
or simply stop paying taxes by not taking the fruits of those taxes.
Sadly I have family commitment which are leveraged against me. If I
could just stop paying taxes without jeopardising those family
commitments and without risking violence I definitely would.
News flash! You've bee *brainwashed* into "family commintments". Move
to Haiti while you can!
Post by D
So what do I do instead?
I fight with lawyers and aggressive tax planning. I'm down to about 9%
to 14% in taxes, which is much better than the 60+% or so I used to
pay, but the journey towards 0% continues! =) Once my family
commitments are not holding me back, I think, as you say, that it
should be quite possible to shave off some additional couple of % from
that figure! =)
And that lawyering isn't taxation how?

Also, you forgot to add "Contact me to learn more". Your lawyer is
already disappointed.
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
D
2024-07-08 20:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Pozharski
*SKIP* [ 17 lines 5 levels deep]
Post by D
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by D
One thing to note though, is that I say more ethical, and not
_ethical. No government is ethical. And all governments can become
more and more ethical as they strive to abolish themselves. So no,
arabia is not "ethical" but since they engage in less theft than for
instance, sweden, then yes, they are more ethical than sweden.
Why do you pay taxes if you consider it unethical? There's country's
you could move to with little government and no taxes such as Haiti,
or simply stop paying taxes by not taking the fruits of those taxes.
Sadly I have family commitment which are leveraged against me. If I
could just stop paying taxes without jeopardising those family
commitments and without risking violence I definitely would.
News flash! You've bee *brainwashed* into "family commintments". Move
to Haiti while you can!
Post by D
So what do I do instead?
I fight with lawyers and aggressive tax planning. I'm down to about 9%
to 14% in taxes, which is much better than the 60+% or so I used to
pay, but the journey towards 0% continues! =) Once my family
commitments are not holding me back, I think, as you say, that it
should be quite possible to shave off some additional couple of % from
that figure! =)
And that lawyering isn't taxation how?
Also, you forgot to add "Contact me to learn more". Your lawyer is
already disappointed.
Lawyering is not taxation, correct.
Eric Pozharski
2024-07-09 08:34:19 UTC
Permalink
*SKIP* [ 30 lines 5 levels deep] # connectivity is lost
Post by D
Lawyering is not taxation, correct.
Are you talking to yourself that early?
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
D
2024-07-09 10:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Pozharski
*SKIP* [ 30 lines 5 levels deep] # connectivity is lost
Post by D
Lawyering is not taxation, correct.
Are you talking to yourself that early?
Yes.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 22:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Tax is theft.
Tax pays for law enforcement. Tax pays for the roads leading to your
house. Tax pays for keeping your water clean and your air breatheable,
against the depredations of corporations who would happily pass on such
costs as an “externality”.

Imagine if you had to pay a toll just to take your car out of your
driveway. Or pop a coin in the meter every time you turned on your water
tap, or took a breath.
Anonymous
2024-07-08 00:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Tax is theft.
Tax pays for law enforcement.
"Law enforcement" prevents us white people from organizing collective
defense of our neighborhoods against blacks. They also enforce the
current anarcho-tyranny we're forced to live under here in America.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Tax pays for the roads leading to your
house. Tax pays for keeping your water clean and your air breatheable,
against the depredations of corporations who would happily pass on such
costs as an “externality”.
A small amount compared to just Medicare and Medicaid. Oh wait, tax
doesn't pay for the majority of those, as they are currently some 80
percent unfunded by tax receipts, and account for the vast majority,
if not ALL of the deficit.

Stop with your bait-and-switch.
D
2024-07-08 10:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Tax is theft.
Tax pays for law enforcement.
"Law enforcement" prevents us white people from organizing collective
defense of our neighborhoods against blacks. They also enforce the
current anarcho-tyranny we're forced to live under here in America.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Tax pays for the roads leading to your
house. Tax pays for keeping your water clean and your air breatheable,
against the depredations of corporations who would happily pass on such
costs as an “externality”.
A small amount compared to just Medicare and Medicaid. Oh wait, tax
doesn't pay for the majority of those, as they are currently some 80
percent unfunded by tax receipts, and account for the vast majority,
if not ALL of the deficit.
Stop with your bait-and-switch.
That's Lawrence standard topic. When he is refuted, he just switches
topic, or reframes the question, without addressing the original argument.

It also seems he has never travelled outside the socialist paradise he
currently lives in, and has no concept of for-profit, non-profit,
volunteer, neighbourshood watches, etc. organizations which work better
than the government and are funded without taxes (theft).
D
2024-07-08 10:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Tax is theft.
Tax pays for law enforcement. Tax pays for the roads leading to your
house. Tax pays for keeping your water clean and your air breatheable,
against the depredations of corporations who would happily pass on such
costs as an “externality”.
Imagine if you had to pay a toll just to take your car out of your
driveway. Or pop a coin in the meter every time you turned on your water
tap, or took a breath.
Still does not refute what I said. It is property taken against peoples
will (well, not in your case, but I know many where that description
fits).

Toll roads exist, I have no problem and prefer that system over taxation.
Private hospitals, security, volunteer or charity institutions exist,
neighbourhood watches.

The amount of organizations, for-profit or non profit that exist are too
numerous to list.

Ergo, tax is just a myth that politicians have inculcated into you,
arguing that it is the only system that works, despite being deeply
unethical.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 01:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US continued
to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used the
Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just “let the market
decide”.

Coincidence? You be the judge.
D
2024-07-07 10:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US continued
to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used the
Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just “let the market
decide”.
Coincidence? You be the judge.
That is incorrect. See original statement.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 22:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US
continued to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used
the Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just “let the market
decide”.
Coincidence? You be the judge.
That is incorrect.
That’s what really happened. This is all a matter of public record, that
no amount of ranting polemic, no matter how loudly shouted, can erase.
D
2024-07-08 10:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US
continued to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used
the Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just “let the market
decide”.
Coincidence? You be the judge.
That is incorrect.
That’s what really happened. This is all a matter of public record, that
no amount of ranting polemic, no matter how loudly shouted, can erase.
See original message. There you have your answer.
Scott Dorsey
2024-07-09 00:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US continued
to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used the
Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just “let the market
decide”.
It's true that the cellphone companies in the US lobbied congress for a
number of regulations that stifled competition and stifled the growth
of the industry, such as the Electronic Communication Privacy Act of 1986
which remains a stumbling block for all kinds of things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
D
2024-07-09 10:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US continued
to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used the
Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just ???let the market
decide???.
It's true that the cellphone companies in the US lobbied congress for a
number of regulations that stifled competition and stifled the growth
of the industry, such as the Electronic Communication Privacy Act of 1986
which remains a stumbling block for all kinds of things.
--scott
Thank you for a good example Scott.
Dave Yeo
2024-07-10 15:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US continued
to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used the
Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just ???let the market
decide???.
It's true that the cellphone companies in the US lobbied congress for a
number of regulations that stifled competition and stifled the growth
of the industry, such as the Electronic Communication Privacy Act of 1986
which remains a stumbling block for all kinds of things.
--scott
Thank you for a good example Scott.
It is a good example of capitalism in action, using capital to acquire
more capital, in this case by buying government.
Why do you hate capitalism?
Dave
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-10 22:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US
continued to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries
used the Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just ???let
the market decide???.
It's true that the cellphone companies in the US lobbied congress for
a number of regulations that stifled competition and stifled the
growth of the industry, such as the Electronic Communication Privacy
Act of 1986 which remains a stumbling block for all kinds of things.
It is a good example of capitalism in action, using capital to acquire
more capital, in this case by buying government.
Which they did very well, to their own benefit, but not to that of their
customers who were supposed to be paying for all of this.

The Europeans managed to create a much more competitive free market.
D
2024-07-11 09:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Except that neither europe nor the US are free markets, so neither can
be used as an example.
The simple fact is that mobile phones took off in lots of countries,
reaching over 100% penetration in several of them, while the US continued
to lag behind. What was different? Those other countries used the
Government-mandated GSM standard, while the US just ???let the market
decide???.
It's true that the cellphone companies in the US lobbied congress for a
number of regulations that stifled competition and stifled the growth
of the industry, such as the Electronic Communication Privacy Act of 1986
which remains a stumbling block for all kinds of things.
--scott
Thank you for a good example Scott.
It is a good example of capitalism in action, using capital to acquire more
capital, in this case by buying government.
Why do you hate capitalism?
Dave
In situations like these, I always recommend the calm and collected
reading of Johan Norbergs The Capitalist Manifesto
(https://www.amazon.com/Capitalist-Manifesto-Global-Market-World/dp/1838957928/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=).

Enjoy! =)

D
2024-07-05 09:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for people
to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Of course they can. You're wrong per definition, but thank you for the
attempt. ;)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-06 01:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for
people to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Of course they can.
No they can’t. Left to themselves, they fall prey to anticompetitive
practices, deceptive advertising, price-fixing, and just plain fraud.
That’s why we need laws, and a Government to enforce them. Freedom
requires order; anarchy is not freedom.
D
2024-07-06 10:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for
people to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators to
keep them free.
Of course they can.
No they can’t. Left to themselves, they fall prey to anticompetitive
practices, deceptive advertising, price-fixing, and just plain fraud.
That’s why we need laws, and a Government to enforce them. Freedom
requires order; anarchy is not freedom.
Incorrect. Read this:
https://fee.org/articles/how-the-free-market-handles-monopoly/ .
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 01:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for
people to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators
to keep them free.
Of course they can.
No they can’t. Left to themselves, they fall prey to anticompetitive
practices, deceptive advertising, price-fixing, and just plain fraud.
That’s why we need laws, and a Government to enforce them. Freedom
requires order; anarchy is not freedom.
Incorrect. Read this [useless article].
Maybe stop paying attention to content-free polemicists, and start paying
attention to the reality around you.

Consider how long your economy would last if currency counterfeiters were
allowed to proliferate unchecked, just for example.
D
2024-07-07 10:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
I find it tragic that something like that should be necessary for
people to lift a finger when it comes to protecting markets.
Almost as though free markets cannot remain free without regulators
to keep them free.
Of course they can.
No they can’t. Left to themselves, they fall prey to anticompetitive
practices, deceptive advertising, price-fixing, and just plain fraud.
That’s why we need laws, and a Government to enforce them. Freedom
requires order; anarchy is not freedom.
Incorrect. Read this [useless article].
Maybe stop paying attention to content-free polemicists, and start paying
attention to the reality around you.
Consider how long your economy would last if currency counterfeiters were
allowed to proliferate unchecked, just for example.
Ahh... so you did not read? Then we can stop. I could cut n' paste it
here, but since you admit defeat by not reading and responding, I consider
this argumetn won! =)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 22:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Ahh... so you did not read?
Appealing to such a questionable authority who has done such a good job of
telling you what to think is convincing others only of how gullible you
are.
D
2024-07-08 10:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Ahh... so you did not read?
Appealing to such a questionable authority who has done such a good job of
telling you what to think is convincing others only of how gullible you
are.
Thank you for the admission of defeat. =)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-04 23:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous
Rick Perlstein needs to STFU, as he's a left-wing kike.
Where are the righteous right-wingers who can contribute to Free software
as well as expound opinions on it? There don’t seem to be any.
D
2024-07-05 09:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Anonymous
Rick Perlstein needs to STFU, as he's a left-wing kike.
Where are the righteous right-wingers who can contribute to Free software
as well as expound opinions on it? There don’t seem to be any.
They exist, but generally they take two paths to nirvana. Either they are
outspoken and are shunned and net-hated by the radical left. There are a
few like Luke Smith for instance. Or they work away suffering in silence.
I know many of the second type and benefit greatly due to offering an
environment in my own company that bans politics (except perhaps a poke or
two at the radical left) which gives them peace of mind to perform
miracles.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-06 01:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Where are the righteous right-wingers who can contribute to Free
software as well as expound opinions on it? There don’t seem to be any.
Either they are outspoken and are shunned and net-hated ...
But nobody can stop them distributing their software, can they? It will
still manage to stand or fall on its merits, just like everything in Open
Source.
D
2024-07-06 10:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Where are the righteous right-wingers who can contribute to Free
software as well as expound opinions on it? There don’t seem to be any.
Either they are outspoken and are shunned and net-hated ...
But nobody can stop them distributing their software, can they? It will
still manage to stand or fall on its merits, just like everything in Open
Source.
I am not talking about distributing their software.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-07 01:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Where are the righteous right-wingers who can contribute to Free
software as well as expound opinions on it? There don’t seem to be any.
Either they are outspoken and are shunned and net-hated ...
But nobody can stop them distributing their software, can they? It will
still manage to stand or fall on its merits, just like everything in
Open Source.
I am not talking about distributing their software.
If their software contributions *are* being accepted and distributed, then
how would you say they are being “shunned”?
D
2024-07-07 10:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by D
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Where are the righteous right-wingers who can contribute to Free
software as well as expound opinions on it? There don’t seem to be any.
Either they are outspoken and are shunned and net-hated ...
But nobody can stop them distributing their software, can they? It will
still manage to stand or fall on its merits, just like everything in
Open Source.
I am not talking about distributing their software.
If their software contributions *are* being accepted and distributed, then
how would you say they are being “shunned”?
Read original message. Will not repeat.
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